"This is an illustration of what's called "reform" or "new" math." I don't believe this is an accurate representation of "new" math anymore than "one train leaves Arkansas at the same time as another that leaves New York ..." is an accurate representation of "old" math. No serious math teacher believes we should not teach basic skills. It is impossible to do old math and new math without an agility with basic skills. However, teaching basic skills for the purpose of being able to do multiplication problems with no understanding of the underlying meaning of multiplication or concept of when or how to use it makes no sense. Somehow members of "Where's the Math?" believe that we should go "back to the basics," yet every time we do, we end up wondering why our society is weak mathematically. Although the idea of reforming mathematics education has been around for over a decade, the TIMMS Study shows that most of our math classrooms remain firmly set in the mode of "back to the basics" instruction. If it works so well, why do we not see progress in our kids' success with mathematics? To continue doing what we've always done will get us the same results that we've always gotten, and I can agree with the "Where's the Math?" folks that what we've always gotten is not nearly good enough anymore.

Math is taught differently in the United States than
in any other country; it has diverged steadily since
the 60s or so. And with dramatically inferior results. Our curriculum is *not* "back-to-the-basics"; it is nonsense. As a grad student TA in chemistry in the 80s I saw that American students where shockingly inept in the simple algebra needed for freshman chem compared to students from anywhere else, including developing countries (especially those with a British curriculum). My physicist wife and I are augmenting our kids' math with the very traditional Singapore books. They look like American books from the 50s or 60s. Parents, look at your kids' math books! You will be shocked at the nonsense you see. The manipulations of arithmetic are the basis of the manipulations of algebra, group theory, and higher math. Kids that master arithmetic have learned far more than how to price items in a grocery store. The problem above is a fun one. It would be appropriate in a math competition or a puzzle book. It does not test mastery of the skills in HS math that form the basis for further work.

The problem posed above is a simple logic exercise quickly solved by inspection. There is no doubt that math has been the fad plaything of the educational experimentalist since the introduction of the "new math" in the 60's. Lots of new textbooks have been written for and bought by the school systems. Administrative careers have been built on the willingness to accept and promote this avant garde experiment. Great quantities of taxpayer dollars have been spent to support this experiment and build administrative careers. Now, the failure of that decades-long experiment is being exposed by means of the WASL. Gov. Gregoire and Superintendant Bergeson on 22 Nov., before the election, said they were not going to withdraw the WASL graduation requirement, but, a month later on 27 Nov., they held a press conference announcing their intention to go to the state legislature for approval to suspend the WASL math graduation requiremnt until 2012. A failed program of instruction is out there being exposed, but the culpable want to bury the problem. The teachers are not doing their job and their extraordinarily powerful union is supporting them. We suggest that the teachers voluntarily take the WASL math test along side their students and their scores be published to be compared with all the students to openly demonstrate their proficiency. If they cannot pass it, how can they teach it?

Read "22 Oct." for "22 Nov."

On Saturday Dec 9, the Seattle Public Schools will be having a work session for high school math teachers and communtity college math instructors called "Lost in Transition?".

The focus will be the inability of WA State high school graduates to place into Community College Math courses at the 100 level or higher.

The State is currently spending 50 million dollars per year offering sub 100 level classes at the Community College level. These classes do not count for college credit as they cover content that should have been learned in high school.

I believe this math problem exists because of lack of arithmetic skills leading to lack of algbra skills leading to can't do real college math. School administrators have discarded K-8 promotion/non-promotion policies, and effective discipline standards at most levels, as well as a real mathematics curriculum in many high schools.

Can this failure of so many students to transition successfully to Commmunity College math be considered a mystery to be solved? I think not.

The real mystery is who will solve this current problem as its creators seem to be local school districts attempting to follow bloated math GLEs from OSPI using NSF funded curricula that seem to follow Natinoal Council of Teachers of Mathematics Standards. We are lead by a State Board of Education, which I believe has many members but not one of which has a degree in Math, Engineering or Physical Science.

Do you really thing that all those who lead us into this OSPI induced chaos, will lead us out?

Swamp land is available for you, if you do.

Danaher Dempsey

Bergeson now wants more money after 12 years of failed ideas? When can we get rid of her and stop experimenting on our public school kids?

We arent 42nd in the nation because our schools are so outstanding.

With about 50% of our state's taxes going into education, we should have one of the best systems on the planet. But no, third world countries turn out better educated students than our state does.

It's time for Gregoire and Bergeson to stop asking us for MORE money for THEIR failed ideas.

The problem presented on TV is just like NFL teams playing games against each other. Who is the best team? How do you figure it out? Great question! New math is more than two numbers with a times or plus sign between them. It is deciding what opperation is used to arrive at a "who is better" decision.

The new math is becoming a problem because its questions like these that could have more than one answer. The new math is basically problem solving and you don't have any methods or formula's to help people out.

i am a sophmore fromt he fedral way school disrict from thomas jefferson high school and i took the wasl while i wasa freshman i passed everything but the math and my thing is i think the teachers i say that because they dont teach the basics and i can say that because i have never learned my shapes that i never learned which is suppose too be taught in elementary. But also i think the wasl should be changed to somthing that is reasonable for the stuedents to pass and its not because look at the percentages how about they figure out who has bigger percantages and see what they are doing

As in all things, not everyone's skills or aptitudes are created equal. However, everyone needs basic computational mathematics skills, and these must be taught thoroughly to all students. Those students who show the aptitude can pursue the more abstract problem solving skills as they advance in grade and start to specialize. There is no reason to frustrate those students without the inclination or aptitude to solve complex problems at the sacrafice of basic math skills they can and will use daily to make change, alter recipes, or balance their check books.

having been in fast food for 30rs.i find they still can't make change without help from the computor.

What a waste of time!

Is the answer Player 4. I am no good at math. I am taking Math 084 at SCCC so my math skills are still around the level of a 10th grade student. I was just wondering if I got the correct answer and if I didn't what is the right answer.

I think that the basic math skills are suffering. With out the very basics, all the creative thinking in the world won't help them solve the problem.
Plus it's extremely irritating to have to explain to the cashiers how to give your change back properly. It seems that unless kids have a calculator, they can't do basic math anymore.

How can the "new math" advocates expect the children who take the WASL or any other math class to think creatively and come up with their own answers if there are no "basics" to build on? They would do better to teach them basics and then introduce them to more challenging problems that could invite creative thinking. Creativity and thinking skills have to come from basics, not thin air.

My son is in the sixth grade and I have noticed over the years that his math work has been very different from what I learned when I went to school. I had the same add, subtract, multiply and divide math year after year until I made it to junior high and started taking pre-algebra. The math that my son is learning has been teaching him the basics of algebra, geometry, and problem solving for several years. I am very impressed with this approach. I did notice however that he did not have the basic foundation of memorization of the addition, subtraction, multiplication and division. Our solution was that we bought flash cards and had him begin working through the flash cards nightly so that he learned the basics. I would like to see a balanced approach that adds the integration of the math foundation skills to the new progressive teaching.

The benefit to the new way of teaching is that the kids are challenged and taught that math is much more than just adding, subtracting, multiplying and dividing. Our kids need to know that math is something that most people will use throughout their life. I have believed for quite some time that math taught me early on that no matter what the problem you are faced with, there is always a solution to be found.

So let's talk about a balanced shift to combine the basics with the new approach and make a better system.

Thanks, Justin

I am shocked that Robert Mak would invite Glenn Anderson to speak a rational thought about education. Anderson is clearly anti-edcucation, and is very blatant about his opinions, let alone his votes in Olympia. He is NEVER rational regarding education.
Mr. Mak, you would have been wiser to invite a more neutral party who understands education, the WASL, and current trends and research regarding math pedagogy.

I feel so frustrated by OSPI and Terry Bergeson's blind faith that they know better than what all the studies are finding. Reform math does not work. We have fallen behind as a country because our math has been getting diluted with this line of thinking.

This is what happens when a bunch of people write math curriculum who aren't math experts. They don't know anything about what technical math skills are needed in the fields of engineering, science, accounting, etc.

It's almost like reform math is just teaching logic. Math is much more than just logic. In fact, most math that we need everyday isn't logic. It's basic computation. Problem solving without knowing how to solve the problems though computation is going to fail.

A classic example of "teaching to the lowest common denominator". Oops. Should be using those overly mathematical terms. Wouldn't want to confuse anyone.

And, just so people know... many school districts in Washington State have adopted reform math curriculum at least 3-5 years ago. The fact that those districts that haven't adopted reform math yet are doing poorly on the WASL is because the WASL doesn't test whether kids know math, but whether they are good at brain teasers.

WASL and reform math must go. Look at California and how they are now the model for the country, since they dumped reform math.

I think this wasn't very hard. All that was needed to do was write out all their records and then find which players each one of them still had to play. After doing that, you comopare the player's record with that of their future opponents' and there you've got your answer. I got that player 2 has the hardest games ahead of him/her because his/her record is 2-2 while both of the opponents' is 3-1.

--Sarah

I think I might have the answer.

The person that has the next two hardest games is #2, because the last two people he has to face are 3-1.

US students arre being taught excellent problem solving skills.
WASL tests basic math skills.Kids fail there.Following syllabus,text books designed to prepare for that,releasing WASL questions from back tests(that will teach skills to students) will help.
My daughter is in 7th grade.They tell her to draw a graph from preschool. Nobody taught her how to as a chapter yet.

This new math is a total waste for our children. I have a 7th grader who still does not know all her basic math facts. We have to send our children to math classes after their regular school day. Which is both unfair to the kids and very costly for the parents. How long our they going to wait before they figure out that this is not a good program??

Miles,

Exactly! The WEA keeps skipping the 'basic skills' set for all of the students and expecting that teaching the WASL skills for a few months of the year means our kids are 'proficient' in math.

Bill Gates has recently, albeit gently, tried to reason with the NEA and suggest that our students are not learning actual math and science - and he was castigated as 'not an educator.' But as someone who sees the hiring pool offered to him in this state, no wonder he hires internationally more than locally.

You can't run until you learn how to walk... I am an immigrant who was shocked after learning how weak in math my peers in US College were.
In my mind, secondary education’s purpose is to provide basic skills; students can advance in a field of their choosing in college. I was very disappointed when my son brought home a calculator when he was still a kindergartner! We were allowed to use calculators starting 10th grade.
Why do we want to reinvent the wheel? Let’s look around [the world] and see what works and what doesn’t? US math curriculum is bad, other countries have proven to do better. Let’s do that! Let’s keep it simple…

I believe a student can learn most any subject taught with effective teaching. In the case of math, it means changing a long held cultural belief female students "need not apply" to be interested in math...that it is for male students only. Yes. Progress has been made, but not even close to what has to happen.

I firmly believe our educational system from the federal level throughout is administratively top heavy. Not enough funding goes into teacher/child support for learning.

I also believe over the last two generations we have asked our schools to do WAY MORE in getting our students ready for learning than we can realistically expect.

I believe parents in those same generations have failed to fully parent in the way that results in their child being ready for school.

Nothing will change unless schools, parents, the community and the student themselves engage in changing the way we learn and the way we prepare to learn.

We continue to focus on the statistics because it is safer and easier to try and explain the shortcomings. It is HARD to parent and HARD to teach ALL children.

We are going through our lives so frantically and quickly many of us don't embrace the fact there is a huge return on the TIME and ENERGY we are willing to put into preparing our children for learning and educating.

All four systems just stay safely in their corners and the years grind on. Our cnhildren loose.

Wow. My husband and I just independently worked out this problem. It only took each of us less than 5 minutes and we both got the question right. Our 10th grade son just did the problem at school and knew the right answer. This has absolutely nothing to do with "math" and everything to do with logic. My question: Are we testing students' math skills or logic skills on the math WASL test?

The WASL is a good idea, but the new math is not realistic in regards to today's world. Most of the school children in Washington do not have the basic math skills necessary to perform problem solving. Why are our children not passing the math WASL? Is it because the school districts have failed them or is it because they have no problem solving skills? I think it is both. The districts fail the children in that the districts are more concerned with passing the WASL themselves than teaching the children basics. The children fail because they were never taught the basic math that is the fundamental base for all future aspects of math; they get frustrated and give up. Although I have two children who excel in every aspect of the WASL (both pass with well-above average score) I think the new math is a failure without the old math as a foundation. What good is being being able to assess a problem if you cannot use the basics to get the answer? Washington State needs to quit worrying about its educational image and start worrying about the children it claims to care so much about.

I am a mother of a junior in high school who took the WASL last year and pasted reading, writing and math. I have been struggling with this new math since my son was in elementary school. I have felt helpless as a parent in that they don't provide proper math books to let parents help and learn the new math with their child. I tried to teach the basics of the multiplication table to my son and was told they didn't want me to. I am not opposed the new math but learning the basics of adding, subtraction, multiplication, division is a neccessity. I agree with the repetion of math so it becomes instinct. Even now I notice when I ask my son what 15% or 20% of the dinner bill is so we can leave a tip, he either can't figure it out or it takes him a long time.

Why can't we combine the old math and the new math. Teach the basics until it is drilled in and then start adding the new math for problem solving.

As for the graduating part. I believe we should leave it as it is. Allowing the kids who didn't pass WASL math to graduate teaches them that if they don't try something will happen and they will get anyway with it. That is not what real life it like. How is that fair to the kids that did pass? I liked the idea of having the kids take math and keep testing until they can pass the WASL but still graduate. Don't minize the kids that passed the WASL, help the others become successful.

Thanks for allowing me to express my opinion, I have been very discourage about this new math for years.
Sharon

"New Math" is just a way to make every student feel good about themselves. Schools are so concerned with student's self-esteem that they have "dumbed down" the math requirements. The WASL is not concerned with whether the student gets the correct answer, it is more concerned with the reason that they student got the answer that he did. Students from other countries are leaps and bounds ahead of us in math and science. The reason that this is the case is that they teach the math. In the U.S., and especially Washington, we no longer teach math we teach to the test. Teachers are so concerned with their students passing the WASL that they only focus on helping the students pass the test. If the teachers knew how to teach, or decided to teach the material instead of the test the students would be able to pass the test with no problems. Also, why do we need the WASL when most students go on to take the SAT's? Why don't we just require all students to take the SAT's in order to graduate from high school? The SAT's have questions that they students will encounter in life, or in college. I believe that the WASL is a waste of time. If the state would make sure that the teachers are doing their jobs the students will learn what they need to. The true definition of a teacher is someone who causes a student to learn. If a teacher constantly says to a student, "DO what you want, it is your grade." The teacher is not doing his or her job. The biggest problem with our math program today is not the students, but the teachers and the state.

The problem above don't amount to a hill of beans in my eyes.
Weather a student can or can not figure the problem out should not be judged by a math matician, that never struggled to learn, like many students today.
Take into account the students of military families. My children attended no less then 10 schools each, in Wa, Mo, HI, Germany, over their school years. I know from experience, my daughter finished MS in Hawaii, and attended all 4 years of highschool, at the same HS. When school started her freshmen year, we knew she was behind her peers, because HI does not teach the students as fast as Wa State does. And she started MS behind in Hawaii, because she was in Germany prior to Hawaii.
Another point is, kids with learning disabilities. My son is ADD/ADHD and takes medication. I do not have a 504 plan for him. why? Because if I did, he would have an excuse not to learn. I want him to learn that he can control his ability to learn, just like the average student.
Another point, is kids that deal with a tragic event. My kids are dealing with that, since the death of their sister in August.
And what does the WASL test say about our teachers? If they were teaching right, wouldn't every child be able to pass that test?
I disagree with passing the WASL as a graduation requirement now, and in the future. And IF they make it a requirement, they need to allow at least 5 years, so that the kids can be taught and prepared with more time, unlike the class of 08, which are JR's now.

A concerned Tacoma Public Shool parent, class of 08.
Please withhold my name: Donna

49% of our students are faling the math portion of the WASL.

Our Govenor and School Superintendent suggest that we allow this 49% to pass without the math skills required in the WASL. We are just now discovering this learning gap exists. How many students have we released in to the work place that have limited math skills to date and how many more will we process through the system? I own a small company with thirteen employees. Eight of the thirteen have no math skills. They range in age from twenty one to thirty five. Four of those with math skills are not from the US. The fifth is forty five years old and a product of our state school system.

The State Superintendent indicates the problem is with the elementry teachers who have not been exposed to the new math. Then why was the system implemented to begin with?

Let's change the WASL testing criteria. Let the teachers take the test and see if they can pass. Would we not find the problem and solution sooner? If they can't pass it, what makes us think their students can? Someplace in the system, there is a great divide.

Are we not obligated to provide a quality education in this state? By allowing the students to pass without the basic math skills is only adding to the liability in the long run and not providing an asset.

Lisa,

Other moms and I have been wondering why we have so many places like Kumon, Sylvan Learning Centers and the like, popping up all over the country.

Why is it that places like this are making MILLIONS of dollars teaching our kids what they arent learning in school?

I expect to have to sit down with my first grader every afternoon and help her with math, English and all of her homework. But I would be beyond livid to have to pay taxes on a failing school system AND also pay for tutoring so that my kids could actually learn their basics.

And Bergeson and Gregoire think 'more money' will fix this? RIGHT!

We need to go back to the old way of learning, reading, writing and Arithmatic. Students are not being challenged. Learn the old way of solving problems then introduce the new way. I have nothing against technology. I love it. But I am from the old school. I firmly believe if we have teachers that are willing to teach our students the old way of doing math we would do much better on the WASL. Commong sense cannot be taught but problem solving can. Teachers have become lazy and so have our students. It's much easier to push a button but you have to use your mind to solve the problems in this world and a computer is not going to do that. God help us all. This is our future generation.

The timing of this story & segment is amazing. Just last week, our 9th grade son was working to get caught up on some math (Everett school district). He was working on fractions and needed to do long division. He asked me to show him long division because he said he never learned it. I said, oh yes, you did too learn long division...you had to have. He insisted that he did not learn it. I truly didn't believe him - shame on me. The Sunday morning segment on TV repeated the same scenario for another woman, her two boys (A students) did not remember learning long division and didn't know how to do it. Wow...my son was really telling the truth! My husband, who was an excellent math student, and myself - a "medium" math student both remember getting daily homework to practice skills learned in math. We have watched our son over the last 4 - 5 years and he rarely brings home any math homework. It has bothered us to no end because he struggles in math and hates it. We wish that regular math computational skills would be taught and that regular homework would be assigned. I've talked to math teachers before and their rational is that the kids won't do "two pages of computational homework" so why assign it? It has been so frustrating. On the outside the system seems to raise the expectations of what they want the student to learn but on the inside they have lowered expectations because students won't do the work. What is the truth? While people argue their point, time is ticking away and many of our kids are getting older and don't have a good handle on the basic math skills to manage every day life.

Dear Mr.Mak With all due respect, it is sad that we have to check our change from cashiers in all stores. The employers have to monitor and educate their new hires in order to keep in business. We have a grandson that we are unable to share our knowledge with, when it comes to math, because we don`t know what he`s supposed to be learning. Also he is unable to gather anything from us and use our help. It`s as if the schools are teaching a new, alien language, without roots in the English language. We`re sorry , there aren`t even study books to bring home and educate the learned amongst us. I`ll wager ,even the teachers would be lost without their answer books. ASK BOEING AND OTHER EMPLOYERS HOW THEY ARE COPING WITH THIS NEW MATH. It is sadly true. The employers HAVE to do the educating to what they wish the employee to do for them.. sincerely, Ivan & Rita Risich, Grapeview, Wa

After watching your show and being a parent of a student that is in High School, I do have a right to input on this subject. First, I disagree with the Math teacher that was on your show. Math is Math is Math. What this person is saying to me is that they are trying to teach skills for future. But what they are actually doing is inadequately teaching the basic skills needed to advance to more computational type problems. Their job is to teach math. We are having to go outside of the school system to provide a math program for our daughter that actually teaches Math. This aberration of a curriculum only high lights the failures of our school system. These blow hards who are in charge of our schools need to stop just teaching WASL and start teaching the basics. They are using the WASL as a measuring stick to judge their ability to teach rather then the competency of the student.

We would also like to add that giving our teachers smaller classroom sizes can only improve our childs ability to get her questions answered and therefore a better chance at an education that we paid for!!!

I think the Math WASL is a bad test. I have two associate college degrees and that question you showed on your report was just plain scary! I would surely love to see T. Bergerson & Russ Killingsworth take the MATH WASL test and pass before forcing our children to do so! I have a teen in the class of '08 and I want that test passing requirement to be cancelled! A student can fail the math test by only a couple points and still be required to take it again! Most of them passed the other WASLS' without a problem with flying colors and off the charts. Also now that the kids see all this hoopla about the test none of them want to take it again. To Robert Mak you do an incredible job of reporting. I love the way you break everything down for people to understand and you always show both sides of a story. Keep up the good work; you are my favorite person on the news! :)

With regard to new math, there wasn't one individual interviewed that had the wrong thinking towards new math or old math. However, there wasn't one individual that understood the issue in public education today. The legislator from Fall City suggested parents are spending large sums of out of pocket money for additional education. That's true, parents are doing that. The same Fall City legislator suggested meeting an International math standard. That's a great idea. What no one wanted to discuss is that US public education cannot compete on an International basis because it is a school system that only operates 180 days a years verses Japan at 245 days a year and most of Europe at around 210 days a year. It is easy to blame teachers for the short comings. The truth is those people with the power and influence to bring about change in public education send their kids to private schools and despite all the rhetoric really have little interest in having public education improve. When the wealthiest of Washington State place their children in public education then, and only then will true reform come about.

Excuse me, but if a student has to take a test 5 times, i believe WE have a BIG PROBLEM. My child has took it 2 times already and did worst the 2nd time. I found out there are math problems on the test for math like geomertry and she barley knows algebra. I have been to every parent/teacher conference and was told she was a solid math student and not to worry about all this wasl stuff. O.K NOW WHAT? Our daughter is doing everything her brother before her had to do to walk proudly with his class. Our daughter had to miss almost all her summer that she earned, just like everyone else, to learn how to pass the wasl. WHAT IS THAT? AND SHE DID WORSE? We don't even know how she can handle all this wasl b.s.
We sure hope this dosen't make her drop out of school. Oh well she has 3 more times, right?

I believe this new math is just too complicated for the kids and parents. I had an A in math when in school and when I tried to help my son with his math I had to call the teacher for help. I felt lost. Not only has the way of solving problems changed but also the wording. If this new math must stay then I think they should offer free classes for parents to get the basics of this new math. My son kept telling me "Mom that is not how you solve that problem". Although I did have the right answer, I didn't word it correctly or take the appropriate steps that this new math requires I managed to solve this problem much faster using the old math. Kids are too overwhelmed nowadays with so much homework and schools pushing them into learning higher academics in lower grades. Some of the things my 7th grader is taught I didn't even begin until high school. Education needs to ease up on kids. Throwing this new math on top of everything else just makes it worse. I would give the answer that I came up with to the problem shown but it is probably wrong because I didn't computate it in the correct way or word it right.

If we are behind other countries in math, how are those countries measured as better then us? And, how and what do they teach their children about math? I have noticed that most people from other countries that are in my children's math class have multiplication tables at their childrens desk and in their cars for the children to drill, drill, drill. This in my 3 rd graders class.

We were once in the lead, back when we put a man on the moon. That required correct unemotional answers. Medical treatment requires correct unemotional answers. Building bridges, houses, etc, etc. How can we not see the value in teaching good fundamentals in our schools?

For my son's algabra class, I just taught my 10th grader reduction of terms, which I dicovered he did not remember learning in math class. It was this step and poor ability to work with fractions in general that was causing him to get a D in math class. Thus the schools did not focus on this in the lower grades, but, required it to be used in the higher grades.

I am an Engineer thus I do use math daily. I could not have even been accepted into engineering school at Penn State let alone pass if I had been educated like my children are in Washington State.

I just read some of the above comments and came across the student from the Thomas Jefferson High School sophomore who passed all but the math WASL (Denise at 9:52 a.m.). I'm shocked she was able to pass anything that had to do with proper grammer, punctuation, and syntax.

I just processed surveys filled out by high school students and was surprised at the comments section. I certainly hope kids these days know how to write better than they did on these surveys and in the above message from Denise. I realize this is probably a bad habit picked up from chatting on the computer where speed is what counts and not proper use of the English language. They should also realize when it is proper to slaughter the structure of their messages and when it is not.

Denise, your point of view may have been taken more seriously if you knew how to express yourself better. Best of luck to you in the future.

I have been an educator for 15 years. Thirteen of those years were spent teaching abroad. I am stunned at how low the standards have become in the USA, especially Washington State, not only in basic mathematic skills, but also reading and writing skills. What has happened to the standards? 42nd in the nation is not acceptable, certainly not with the amount of “money being spent” on “education!” The system is failing us; the teachers are failing us. American students are graduating high school unprepared to enter higher education, the work place and real life. Personally, I have become extremely frustrated with these third class standards. My own attempts at raising the bar have been thwarted by administrators. It’s ridiculous! It has gotten to the point where I am seeking teaching positions in other states, or better yet, returning back abroad where education is taken seriously and supported by the public.

I am fairly competent at solving math problems in real life (I can do percentages in my head, along with multiplication or division), and it took me almost 10 minutes to solve your example of a WASL "math" problem. I had to use some scratch paper, draw the diagram, then figure out that to find who has the hardest remaining schecule I needed to get each person's record of wins and losses, find out who's remaining games were against whom, add those records together, and then find out who had the remainging matches with the combined best record. I don't thing this is the best way to teach our young people how to use math skills in the real world. Or even in any world. By the way, I believe the answer to the question is player number 2.

Bob
I am a semi owner opertor and the math I do every day is not this! Jobs are different out there for every one. My son will go in to Owner/ Operator as I am and will make more than a person that passes! The WASL Testing. (Kids should have the option)My I.Q. is about 110/120 on different things and lower on others. I make more than my friends do that have gone to college.

Kathy
Basic Math carried many of us through our many years. From what I understand the WASL Testing fails 45% of students in the Schools. i AM 46 YEARS OF AGE AND I HAD JUST GOTTEN MY g.e.d. IN 2005. It took me 4 times to pass my math test and at the 4th try I had guessed at it and passed it. Now if the WASL Testing was in it there would be no way I would have gotten my G.E.D. Many children today are brought up in different types of families. some are below poverty, lower class, middle class and upper class which determines the family upbringing in the home which also could mean some parents never had the education we have now nor financial means as to which some parents are not home to help the children study or if you look at the drug and alcohol problems this state has, how can you give a child the WASL Test and make them pass that in order to pass High School. If it is a Testing to see where they are at in their math skills then it should be that. To be used to help find out what type of problem they are having in the math and to help them discover different means of finding a way to solve the problem. Is that not what a Math Teacher does? If a student has to pass it, what fears do you put into them before they tackle the problem? Give them the option to take it, or use it only to find where they need help at. Different Jobs - Different problems. Some may never use math but for simple things. I do. I am a Housewife and Mother and use math in my every day job as such.

I have 3 kids, a freshman in college, a sophmore and a 7th grader. All Seattle school kids. I think we need to look at why 50% of the students DO pass the math wasl! Someone is teaching it right. The problem that I have come across is that teachers are not required to teach the same things. If you have Ms. B for math in middle school you will find that when you get to high school you know so much more then the kids around you because she is doing her job, and doing it well. I have personally experienced this with 2 of my three kids. (the 3rd currently has Ms. B., I'm glad to say) If you had Ms. T, you will find that when you hit high school, that you are completely lost because not only was she a bad teacher that didn't do her job well, but she refuses to give back corrected homework and tests so you can learn from your mistakes and to justify the grade she gave you. (if you contest it she has been known to drop your grade more)I know of one grade school teacher that didn't teach science (till the wasl came along, now she does, because she has to. But I bet she doesn't so it well) because she DIDN'T LIKE science! WHAT??! These are real life Seattle school stories. There is NO TEACHER ACCOUNTABILILY in our school system and the teachers union keeps us hostage. We need regular,standardized tests (not giant ones once in a while) for every basic class, math, science, english, history, at every grade level. Sure the teachers will be "teaching to the test" so what? The test will test what the kids need to know. Just because it's standardized doesn't mean it can't reflect critical thinking and problem solving skills! These things are not mutually exclusive. We need to track the teachers' sucesses as well as the students' sucesses all along the way from grade school up. I'm so tired of people blaming "the class room" for problems in the schools.What is "the class room"? It's a room with tables, chairs, students and teachers. The tables and chairs are not what's wrong with the system. Consistency and accountablitly from "class room" to "class room" is needed. If %50 can do it why can't the other %50? We need to see what works in our sucessfull "class rooms" and have that done in the unsucessfull ones. We also need to see what is done in countries that are sucessful and learn from that too!

I agree with Heidi Rhodes and the Lenanders. Night after night my 9th grader struggles with this new math and in order to help her, we have to go back to the basics just to figuer out how to solve the problem. I do probably a half hour of re-teaching basic math skills before she can do her math homework which sometimes takes approx 2 hrs to do every night. I was not a "math wiz" in school yet knowing the basics allows me to pick up her math book and figuer out how to teach her, which apparently alot of the parents in this area are not able to do. Some of my daughter's friends are starting to come to me to help them. There's something very wrong with this picture. I'm a working Mom yet I feel I should be paid the teacher's salary for teaching my daughter every night. Yes, go back to the basics! Please!!

Katherine R. in Puyallup,Washington

I am taking part in this non scientific poll, to express my opion for those who do agree with new testing standards. Elementary math (basics) like addition, subtraction, and their faster associates multiplicaption, and division should be mastered in the primary grades. By the time kids enter secondary schools, an approach to more complex math is needed. Calculator use for basic math should be accepted by those who are fighting a change in our school requirements. The spider web problem shown in the introdution to this blog does have significant importance to those in the computer industry, which closely represents networked computers. Technology is advancing faster then many can keep up with, and I believe that those in the higher education department should be given full control to test requirements. Leave the WASL alone, and train students to spend a little less time in front a screen for simple entertainment.

Hi, To me after a little thought the only way to make this determination is to first figure out which players have the best records of wins over losses, that would be players #s 1,6,&7 with 3W &1L each. then you determine which players still have to play these "winning" players the most times to finish their schedule. Only one of the players still has to play two of the winning players to finish and that is PLAYER #2. Thus the answer to your question is PLAYER #2. AM I CORRECT?

My answer is Player #3

As a hiring professional at a local company, I am appalled at the people who sit in my office and expect a high five figure income for their lack of knowledge.

The most qualified applicants I see are well over 50 years old if they are American. We generally have better luck with non American recruits as they have skill sets that typically outshine the average American college graduate.

I do not have kids yet, but I see the effects first hand of what the Washington State public education is doing and it is not impressive.

PLEASE EVERYONE, write a letter to Govener Gregoire and tell them your thoughts and experiences with reform math. There has to be a better, balanced way!!

I am not a prude, but I don't think every person should be able to solve the more complicated math problems. We own a restaurant and it would be great if the High School Grads could make change. Most can't. Stick to the basics first and let the those that go on do the more complicated math.

Would a coach put a group of 6yr olds on a baseball field, with bats & balls, then expect them to discover how to play baseball? Would you give a hungry toddler a bowl of hot soup & then be upset that the child did not wait until the soup was cool & that they did not use a spoon? This is what we are doing to our children when we do not give them the basic math skills that they can build on later in life. Teachers should be providing a good foundation of boring, time tested & repetitive basics before teaching creativity. Math is a set of rules & structure to be built upon, these rules need to be learned first, then they can be applied to every day life. Schools should seek out professionals that use math every day & find out what is really useful in "the real world".

7 has the most diffficult matches left to play because it only had on difficulty. With that if he lost the other two he would still win the contest.Bryce Gleason 7th grade

I was wondering if our school leaders can pass these exams? they should be tested and should be better than average before they are elecdted or hired.............just a thought

I was somewhat amused that this morning's discussion on the new math and the WASL. What I found particularly amusing was that the discussion on the WASL was followed by an article about the uneven funding of school districts. I suggest that solving this question of how to equitably fund administrators be place on the math WASL. It seems exactly the kind of question the kids are being asked to solve. Perhaps the state's administrators need to learn problem solving.

As to the WASL itself. People learn in different ways, yet we are now saying that all kids will need to learn abstract problem solving to pass high school. This is wrong and does not help our kids or our country. My third grader brings home math questions that are so abstract that my wife and I can find multiple answers that appear equally correct. The writing skills of the people who make up these standardized questions is less than admirable. They seem to be trying to be cleaver and failing miserably.

Teach the basics, then let them use calculators later to speed up the process. Include the math puzzels in the classroom but not on the WASL.

We shouldn't let mathematics professers determine what is considered the acceptable style of learning. The reason I say this is because my experience is these people generally represent a particular subgroup of learning styles. They thrive on the abstract concepts of math and are less interested in how it is applied in the real world.

There is room for both styles of learning and a need to allow kids to open the doors to learning that work best for them. Math is easy unless adults set the kids up for failure.

I remember as a student thinking I would never use any of the math I was being taught. As an adult I now know otherwise. That said most of the time I am using my math skills it is basic computations at a time when I do not have a tech device to help me. The only time I have seen problem solving skills like the one represented is in job interviews for employers such as Microsoft. Not every student is going to persue a career where such skills are necessary. I do think that presenting these ideas early on helps set the foudation for those who will persue a career in the tech industry but do not believe such skills should be presented in a hgh stakes test. There is no one size fits all in any area of education. As a community we are all diverse in the careers we choose as well as how we learn, young or old. There is no such thing as a "standard" student and to treat students who can't solve "brain teaser" type problems as failures does not do anyone any favors. We should be focusing on the strengths of each student. If every student is expected to follow the same path we begin to eliminate the individuality necessary to produce a functioning community.

In my experience with my own students and others in the schools, it is obvious that many of them do not have a good, working knowledge and mastery of the basics - especially multiplication and division. Without these, they struggle with basic algebra and the other disciplines.
I have no problem with them teaching "alternative" methods for solving a problem, but they still need to understand the basics regardless of how they approach a problem. I believe they should be concentrating on the basics at the elementary level so they have the skills to be successful in middle and high school.

One of the other issues not addressed is the SCORING of the WASL. I have helped score practice WASL's and have been amazed at the disparity. For the math, there are 4 criteria, and for each criteria you can receive a score of 0 to 4. The overall score for the problem is the lowest score received on any one of the 4. So if a student received 4 on 3 of the criteria and 1 on the one other criteria, their score is 1.
I have seen a student, who clearly understood all the math, but messed up on "readability" receive a 1. Yet another student, who clearly doesn't understand it, presents good "logic" even tho not correct, gets the wrong answer, etc. and can still get a 2. Tell me - what good is a system like this?

The last issue with the WASL and the new math is incorporating writing as a math criteria. The students must explain the process they used. I have seen many good math students do extremely poorly on these tests because they are not adept at writing, but yet they totally understand the math behind the problem.

Let's get back to MATH.

Several of the responses by students suggest that math is not the only area in which student performance is far below what we have a right to expect from students. Math is a language. So is English. Both need work.

It looks to me that we need to go back to the "old" math in this country.
I can see now how the students are getting confused in this form of math. Besides if you have small children, most parents may NOT be able to help them with these problems.
This is also to help "critical thinking". The only thing I see for this is just another way to DUMBify the soceity into a way that they can be mainpulated.
Please everyone, revolt and lets get back to the Drills and real problems of Math, instead of these fake problems that really don't teach anything except confussion!

The real issue is that you can not apply a right/wrong veneer to the real world, and to do so is a disservice to our youth. A better exercise in critical thinking would be to come up with factors that are harder to quantify - streak momentum, intimidation factor, etc.

That said, there is no right answer to the above question; answering it is impossible without making subjective decisions. Is 5 at a greater disadvantage with a 1/3 record playing against a 1/3 and 3/1, or is it 2 with a 2/2 record playing against two 3/1 records? Both face a combined match strength of positive 2. Meanwhile, 3 is in the same situation as 5. Or should it be taken a step further? 5's only victory was over 3, which could imply 5 is better than 3. Then again, that means 5's only victory was against a 1/3 record, while 3 beat 2 who has a record of 2/2, which could imply 3 is better than 5.

A strong argument could be made for any of the following answers: 2 and 3, 2 and 5, 3 and 5. As in the real-world, there is no right answer. There are severeral grays. To my knowledge however, the question is scored as having only one correct answer, and that is why this question is unacceptable. Could this explain why half the students failed? because only 33% of those answering correctly were scored correctly? Where is the problem really?

Jenl,

Exactly again!

Bring back AP classes so that those students who have the abilities to go forward have the opportunity to do so.

Penalizing every student for not being AP thinkers just keeps our communities as a whole from moving forward.

We pay some of the highest taxes in the country and are at the bottom of the educational standards. Voters need to correct this by getting rid of Bergeson as soon as possible. No amount of money will ever be enough and with the possibility of facing $15-20,000 per student (as was suggested recently by the Seattle Education chief) I am wondering how many families and companies will simply leave the state rather than pay the nation's top rate per pupil for sub standard education.

As an elementary teacher for nearly 30 years, I have been a victim of, witness to, and reluctant perpetrator of the "swinging pendulum syndrome." New math/ basics/ new math/ basics... let's strive for balance. Neither focus is any good without the other. Education reform is making beneficial changes in teaching and learning in all subjects. The targets, however, are not attainable for many, and so we need to honor those who "Pass the WASL" as well as those who meet basic levels of achievement. We need a certificate of mastery indicating students are prepared for college, and a certificate of achievement for those who meet basic requirements.

As a diagnostic sonographer, patients lives are dependent upon my ability to do accurate mathmatical equations and have a strong understanding of physics. All of the sciences, math, chemistry,physics,biology etc have a tremendous amount of overlap in both computation and theories.
The sciences are subjects that are progressive. If a child does not understand the fundamentals of these subjects, there is no way that he or she could progress to the next level. YOu cannot teach a child algebra without first teaching him or her when to add, subtract, multiply or divide just as you cannot expect them to uderstand certain cellular functions without explaining what different cellular structures are and the importance of their function in a cell.
In Western Washington we are fortunate to have access to excellent medical care. SOme of which is the best in the world. Physicians are up to date on the newest treatments and technologies. However, an increasing number of physicians in our country are foreign.Why? Becuase our state and federal government have developed laxed attitudes toward higher learning!!!Just ask the kid who got " straight A's or 4.0's" in all their high school classes and is know pulling 2.5's in their CORE college courses. This is assuming that they are doing all of thier own work and are not cheating. Which I believe is another symptom of a bankrupt educational system, but that is a topic for another day.

Kyle,

Math is very black and white. There ARE right and wrong answers. Maybe not for the problem at the top of the blog - but it is a very good example of why students shouldnt be taught this bogus math on a standardized test.

At least gregoire and bergeson are publically admitting it now; but their only answer is "more money" ... are you ready to double and triple your taxes to keep paying for this?

after reading several responses, I felt the need to respond.This *New Math* concept is outragous, to say the least. New math is something you start teaching 5 year olds, when they are more ready to learn, not to a group of 11TH graders that are already looking beyond highschool to what they will do once they leave highschool.
I would like to see Mr.Bergerson, and Govener Gregoire sit on live TV, and take the same test our teenagers are forced to pass for graduation, and PASS it. I do not think they can!
Whats funny is, the class of 08 will help decide Govener Gregoire's future as govener when she goes up for re election~~~here's your sign Govener Gregoire

The Upfront segment today was both amusing and tragic as I see it. To be upfront I am a democrat and former public educator who could not pass up a job in my discipline at twice the salary. I have the utmost regard for public school teachers and am in frequent contact with many good friends still in schools.

The irony of this situation is that the Roundtable that has been pushing not to delay the standards has been silent as the Gov. and Bergeson spin the fact that our current math curriculum has failed miserably. They want to delay not because students will give up after failing a couple of times but due to the fact the outrage would be a political nightmare of enormous proportions. I will bet anyone a lobster dinner the legislature will postpone math requirement. If we don't get up to 80% passing they will continue to postpone indefinitely. Who wants to be sued? We would not be having this conversation except that 49% is not an acceptable loss of graduates. The only reason we are not having this debate in writing and reading is that as scores go up we will still have between 5 to 15% not passing and not graduating due to those two areas but those are acceptable losses to Bergeson. (not in my opinion)

Second, Bergeson has lost touch with reality. Let me get this straight. She has been office the entire time since we initiated the WASL. She has has been in charge of education and has been a proponent of the current situation for 15 years and now she wants control of the curriculum. She wants to limit the math curriculum to two or three choices as decided by OSPI. Yes, I can see the logic now. We have failed for 15 years so give us more power. I agree with the software engineer on the segment who asked if anyone making these decisions has a degree in math or engineering.

On a related note, the current reform math guru Ruth Parker is a celebrity now pushing reform math around our state. Ironically, she does not have a degree in math, to my knowledge has not taught math, and has little or no actual experience with children. I have never understood how the public will accept any fad or theory from someone who actually has not been in the field. Whenever someone who proclaims to be an expert talks just ask for the degree or experience. Hopefully they will have one or the other in the actual field. I am assuming the professor on the segment has a math degree but I have found that many times the professors teaching teachers actually don't have degrees in the discipline. My ed teachers did not all have degrees in my discipline.

The tragedy of the situation is how the discussion is framed. It is not, nor has it ever been, traditional vs. reformed math. Without the basic computational skills higher level thinking and problem solving skills are irrelevant. As fluency, (i am amused by the jargon educational leaders use) otherwise known as mastery of basic computational skills increases, then the opportunity for greater understanding and application increases. Most new textbooks understand this and incorporate problem solving and application components into them. Reform math just assumes that basic mastery of computataional skills will get taught somehow or somewhere. Meanwhile learning and tutoring centers experience massive growth in our state.

A very significant sidenote on this debate is how the reform math impacts students who struggle in school already. I talked with an ESL instructor who is disgusted by reform math. She said that many of her students are actually far above native English speaking students in math but fail miserably in reformed math due to the substantial increase in reading fluency.

Ask a special education teacher at the middle school or high school level about reform math and the WASL. I will bet they are not proponents of the reformed math.

I too do not like Glen Anderson at all but find myself agreeing for the first time ever with him on this issue. It has come to the point the Bergeson wants total control after her 15 failure, and the administrative sheep will go along with her. Meanwhile the front line teachers and students suffer.

When will the public decide enough is enough. I wonder?

After watching Upfront this morning, I can't figure out what the public doesn't see the writing on the wall. GET BACK TO BASICS!

A guest this morning stated that 'new math' is where we should be as we 'have calculators'. What a ridiculous analogy. So because we have Spellcheck capabilities, we don't need to learn on to spell. Get the basic math into our kids first...then bring on the story/thinking problems. All can be done during their basic education years.

As an educator in WA state for 16 years at the elementary level I have seen the damage the WASL has caused in this state first hand. WA is no longer concerned about national standards or how our kids complete on a standardized playing field. Legislators have spent countless hours and dollars preoccupied with accountability. Their solution? State standards and a subjective and inconsistent test! There are quality National Math standards (NCTM) out there and they work quite well for many states. Many of our "reformed" Math curruculums in this state are based on them. Sadly, WA doesn't choose to align them or evaluate them.
We need to demand more from Gregoire and Burgeson on this. The WASL is a poorly written average test that measures kids on a useless and arbitrary standard that means nothing nationally or internationally. Parents should be much more concerned with how their child will do on the SAT's or another national standardized tests. Two years ago this state dropped all national tests and replaced them with the WASL to fulfill the NCLB federal mandate.
The WASL is 40 times more expensive to administer and evaluate than the ITBS was for elementary students. Parents and teachers receive a small fraction of data that is useful or relevant for measuring a student's progress. We are no longer able to compare our student progress with other states and national standards.
We're 47th in the nation because we've allowed a liberal agenda to be more concerned with a student's self esteem than their ability to compete with other states and nations. The first step is to identify a test that measures our kids on a standardized and national scale. One that is fair and consistent. Out kids deserve nothing less! Maybe this debate will get us headed that direction? Otherwise passing the 10th grade WASL is the least of your worries as parents and students in WA!

Robert.

The answer is #2. The problem is fairly easy, just takes some time.... about ten minutes. I have a daughter in the 10th grade at Bellingham High.
She was not given the opportunity to learn the basics (ie,long addition,long subtraction,long multiplacation,and long division)in Washington public schools.
When she went into the 6th grade, a group of parents went to the elementary school we had left the previous year. We asked why our kids were not taught these basic skills. We were told by the teachers and principal that it was not their job to prepare our kids for middle school. At that time we still had a son in the same elementary. At the present time we spend $30.00 per hour at least once a week for tutoring. The tutor is a retired high school math teacher. He can't understand why the basics are not being taught. He wants to no how we expect our students to do problem solving without the basics. Fifty percent graduation rates, because of a failed system isn't our kids fault. The state needs to revise it's system.

Thank you
Rob

My husband and I both looked at this question. Both of us use math heavily in our jobs. We both learned math the same way (concrete computing skills), yet I apply logic differently than he does. In this problem we determined that there is no absolute answer. We came up with the several answers. #2 has left to play #1 and 7 who are both strong people, but have lost to their equals. We don't know if #2 lost the first 2 matchs and won the last two..is he improving or declining? Did he lose to #6 early on or not. #4 who has the same win ratio as 3/5 still has 2/5 left to play, so they have a difficult feat ahead of them. #3 beat a stronger person and lost to a equal person, so we don't know how they will perform and they still have a stronger/equal person to play. Obviously there are factors that are affecting the outcome and we both need more information.

First is the match played indoors or out. If out doors were the conditions the same each time or different. If different did it affect the winner and loser. Next we need to know if all the contestents were healthy at the time the match was played. Were there emotional issues affecting their performance? When did they play each other are they improving or not. Both my husband and I were athletes in school...all of these factors were taken into consideration when determining our own probablity of performance against opponents so we could work on the skills needed to defeat them. Are these people doing the same?

This is the crux of the problem with the wasl. There simply ins't enough information given for this kind of problem. They need to use logic, which will develop as they mature. Our kids need to be able to quickly compute the figures of probability so they can move on to the logic of the problem. This is where the problems lies...there are not concrete math skills. They are expected to take into account variables, but then must provide one answer. If the answer is correct and haven't explained it well they are penalized. My daughter has told us repeatedly that the questions are frustrating because not enough information is provided to solve the problem. In a job they will have the opportunity to ask for further information, in this test they do not.

As business owners, we are terribly concerned about the quality of the math skills applicants will bring with them when they apply for jobs, and they will need math skills that require a right answer. We are less concerned with how they got there, but our customers will be mad if they are shorted in change by $20 or their bill is off by $52. Besides parent being concerned, employers should also be VERY concerned about the problem facing us.

Students YOU should also be concerned..you will want to be trusted that you are doing a job correctly. How will you FEEL when your employer isn't sure that you can do your job because they know you don't have the concrete skills to perform it. You will end up having to take more math tests to PROVE you can correctly make change, calculate a drug dose, measure the plane wing correctly for that rivet. The implications of the current system are so far reaching it's scarry.

All students recieving a high school diploma should be required to learn basic math skills and progress through algebra, geometry, and trigonometry. These subjects should still contain drill type problems along with context sensitive story type problems. In addition to this traditional approach, a new applied mathematics class should be introduced at the JR/SR level that does not teach any new mathematical concepts but instead concentrates on problem analsys. I believe "plug and chug" mathematics is the root of the problem. We learn new subject matter in little chunks and we are able to plug numbers in a provided formula, and the homework and weekly tests look good. But at the end of the year during the final exams, there are too many non-understood formulas to recall and the test scores are low because of it. Some instructors will even allow students to bring in a page of notes for the tests to make it easier to do the plugging and chugging. Long division is a good example of plugging and chugging. Ask yourself if you really understand the algorithm used in long division and why it works.

A strong foundation in basic math with a true understanding of the mechanics followed by new classes on non-context sensitive story type problem analysis should get the kids thinking critcally in a mathematically way.

My wife and I have been complaining to our daughter's teachers for the last six years regarding the lack of drilling and computational skills in the math curriculum. She is now in the sixth grade and is only now getting the computational drilling she needs because her teacher has identified that as "an area of weakness" for her.

When we first started expressing concern with her math curriculum in 1st grade, we were told that a correct answer is not important as long as the student can show a method to solve the problem. Any method, it didn't have to generate a correct answer. Ever. We were told that was part of the learning process and that computational fluency would come as the problem solving skills developed.

Now we are being told that her problem solving skills are suffering because her computational fluency isn't where it should be. What do they expect? The current math curriculum is like trying to teach a student to write essays before they learn basic letter sounds and usage.

I gess it wood bee mor aparent wat the prablem is if hour children rote lik this. If we aplid the sam concepts of "nu math" to "language arts" then this is wat we can xpekt ther riting to bee lik.

As a individual with a BS in Computer Science, I've had and extensive amount of math during my educational experience. I fully understand what educators are trying to accomplish, I just feel that they are going about the problem incorrectly. (And isn't that what this is all about -- finding the best way to solve a problem?) From our experience with our daughter, I would highly suggest that grades 1-3 focus primarily on computational fluency and number sense. Then start mixing in more of the problem solving and reasoning once the basics are established.

It is easy for the theorists who have extensive backgrounds in mathematics, and to many of whom math understanding came simply, to say that this new process is better. Their thought processes already work within the world of "new math". What they don't understand is that not everyone processes information the same way. What is intuitively easy for me may be almost incomprehensible to my wife. Not because she is somehow inferior to me, but because her thought processes work differently than mine. Not better, not worse, just differently.

Unfortunately those in power to make decisions on how our children are taught, usually don't have a strong background in mathematics and so fall into the trap of "if the experts say it is so, it must be so" because they don't have enough knowledge on the subject to discern fact from theory.

I would like to see every teacher, administrator, and government official (that includes the Governor and Legislature) that has power over or children’s education to take the WASL under the same testing constraints as our children. How many of them would pass?

By the way, the last time I checked, if you had 2 apples and you were given two more, you would have 4 apples. Not three. Not five. Four.

Do people realize that Bergeson herself wrote the test? Do people also know that when this test first was pushed on the kids, Bergeson had felons in a prison scoring those tests?

What exactly *is* Bergeson's educational background? From what I know of her, she's a self styled 'guru' who cares more about controlling what kids think, than teaching them actualy facts.

Her second in command is famous throughout teaching circles for having said, "We are no longer teaching kids facts" and they seem proud of this??

I just love the math homework my 3rd grader brings home! Here is the latest problem: "Use a calculator to count by 10's to 1000. Say the numbers quietly to yourself. How long did it take?"
Just what exactly are we teaching? I encourage people to go to the "Where's the Math" website and find the petition to submit. It is time to take action and start to correct this problem. Our children are paying the price! Where’s the Math?

http://www.wheresthemath.com/

I think we should look at other countries way of succeeding in math and their suggestion of getting the calculators out of the class rooms. I would like to know, how many students that graduate high school can actually count back money? For example if the amount is $10.81 and you give the clerk $11.00 he/she puts the amount in the computer then you hand them a penny and they say oh I already put $11.00 in the system I can't add anything else to it, so they give you back 19 cents. I have seen situations like this many times. We had a situation where our daughter was a senior in high school and in order to graduate her she had to pass the competency test, she was a B student in pre-calculus math but couldn’t pass a basic math test. She finally passed with a lot of outside help from tutoring. What I realized from all of this is that my daughter had mastered the calculator but knew nothing about the basics of math.

Bergeson has now been in office long enough. She's affected millions of kids and we see nothing on the horizon but more taxes being alotted to somehow fix this mess.

I realize she had no real competition in her last three races, but surely there is a competent professional out there that can get our state headed in the right direction.

As an elected official, both sides of the aisle ought to be outraged that the 'leader' of education in our state is this utterly incompetent.

Can we start having a public discussion to find that person in the next two years and get rid of her already??

All players have two plays left. The three players with the best winning averages are players 1, 6, and 7. However player 7 needs to play players with poor average. players 6 and 1 need to play each other with the same winning average. Player 2 with a 2-2 record needs to play players 1 and 7, both having a 3-1 record. Is the answer 2. And does it really matter?
What matters is can my highschool freshman answer it and should she take the time to.
The answer to our bigger question is all about balancing. Parents are in charge of their children's education and we need to be educated in our options. We need to find the answers in our individual schools and classrooms. Go to the school board meetings and help make those decisions. Most of what we see in the news are opinions and blanket results from blanket tests. I would like to see better research and reporting to help educate the public.

I am stunned that we are still having this argument after all these years. I have enjoyed reading the above blogs and the merits of each argument. Here is my humble albeit educated view. I have a degree in Geology. Without basic math skills (ie, add, subtract, multiply, divide, and fractions), I couldn't have learned algebra and geometry. Without algebra and geometry, I couldn't have learned calculus. Without calculus, I wouldn't have been successful in physics, or geophysics, or petrology, or geochemistry.

My point, when did we start teaching our children how to write paragraphs before spelling words. When did we start teaching our children where toilet paper comes from and the merits of conserving trees, before they have learned to use the toilet. Why are we teaching are children to run before they can walk.

The other obvious but ignored argument is math vs logic. Although they appear to be similar as they use the same side of the brain, they are not. Example, the LSAT (Law School Aptitude Test - for the non-Christine Gregoire types) tests logic or analytical thinking. I found very few basic math questions in that test. Yes I took it - twice! Point - I passed my core courses in Geology at WWU with a 3.67 but I didn't score well on the LSAT. If the LSAT was and indicator of my ability in math, then I should have failed in Geology.

The problem above is not a math question it is a logic question. It doesn't test adding, subtracting, muliplication, basic algebra or geometry. It tests a students ability to reason through the question. That is not math that is logic. Science includes logic, philosophy includes logic, law includes logic. Logic includes math, but is not math in itself. Math is about facts - 2 + 2 = 4. This is undeniable.

While at Newcastle Elementary, our son struggled through 2nd grade math - yet he appears to have an afinity toward math, at least they way we teach it at home.

His teacher told us that he needed to be more intuitive. Yeah Right! A 2nd grader being intuitive. They can hardly spell the word. He was told not to write out how he arrived at the answer to a question, he had to think it out in his head and then write down only the answer. When he brought his homework home, we (Mom and Dad) couldn't figure out what was being requested of our son. We asked our son what he had been taught in school regarding addition and subtraction and the processes involved. He couldn't even show us the basics. We asked his teachers what was being taught. They indicated that their expectations included the students understanding the process of math in class and being able to do it in their heads. What!?

Teach our children math first, including the basic process, and then logic. Teach our children to walk first, and then run. Teach them how to spell before you teach them how to write paragraphs or short stories.

As one thoughtful person stated in these blogs, we need to measure ourselves against other methods in international circles and duplicate their process. Why do we have to invent something new when there are processes already in place that have been successful for decades.

Perhaps I will have to move my family to the UK where my parents grew up and were schooled.

The WASL results indicate that our current "new math" system is not working. To continue to use it (new math), defies logic.

This was a great Up Front program. I think Robert Mak covered both sides very well. While we agree that critical thinking is important in life and in the business world, we have witnessed our own children suffering from a poor math curriculum in the public schools (Tahoma School District). We have outsourced their math education to Kumon. It works for us, but we do have to pay for it on a monthly basis. Their education is our priority. We see the schools today failing miserably. To expect our society to rely on calculators and computers is a cop out. But, it will be fine for those aspiring to a lifetime career at McDonalds. We don't care if they are 'engaged', 'having fun', or if they just 'love math class'. We care if they are learning. School doesn't have to be fun, but it does have to be effective. There should be less emphasis on 'Empathy Training' and more on basic skills.

Traci,

A lot of us have been to our school board, our teachers, and the administrators. Know what they tell us?

"We arent having those problems with anyone elses kids."

You just have to face the facts that the WEA and the union need to keep the status quo; which means more money from you and I while they stall the kids and hope for the best.

If the homeschooling and private schooling rosters werent exploding in this state, I would say you may have a point. Parents are fleeing the Seattle Schools for a host of reasons, but it isnt because they arent involved.

Even in the suburbs, the parents are leaving the public schools because of this mess - these arent opinions, these are facts.

One person on the show asked if any of the education panelists personally had a background in math, engineering, or computer science.

No answers were broadcast but the point was made: government, teacher's unions, and many teachers have honed their people skills to be successful in their professions.

Technical policy options should be made by subject-matter professionals and acted upon by the non-expert policy makers.

As an IT executive with graduate degrees, I (and perhaps other professionals on this blog) would be happy to volunteer our services to create policy options.

Steve,

Please apply and discuss your objectives with them (actually teaching a child) and you will not only be insulted by their answers, they (administrators) will make sure to let you know how unwelcome your help is to them.

We know of professionals here in our community who offered the same services to Eastlake High School. They were told, "no thanks" as they wanted to change the curriculum back to classic math.

This is going to be a hard fight to get the changes we all know are necessary. Especially when the union is in charge of our state.

This is from a student in Middle school and her point of view on the WASL.

I believe this WASL to be a most definite failure. For when I began taking the WASL for about 3 weeks before we actually took the test, we study only on that. It was not an all year learning experience; we had to cram it all in just those three weeks! There was no previous learning at all, we just had to stick our heads in it and study everything about it in as little time possible. Lucky for me and my brother we both passed. And the only reason probably why we passed was that our parents helped us, and taught us on how to do it. They bought books from book stores about the WASL, and even got teachers manuals from the book stores to help us pass. They spent their nights teaching us on how they score the WASL and what things that were needed to be described in our answer responses. And one thing for sure we weren't stupid, I was a 3.9 student and higher for the entire year around, we were just given a horrible environment to stuff all of that in our heads during just three weeks! So we had to study this "new" math in just a small amount of time. The teachers didn't teach it, they had the same small amount of understanding I believe from it. They would hand out a piece of paper and have us solve it. Then they would put the answer on the board to see if we got it right or wrong. Then we would start on the next one. They were just following the book. And I noticed before the WASL some teacher skipped the steps on purpose to solving a math equation, they said you can just put that together it doesn’t matter; well it does matter. Because we need those steps to solve the answer of the problem, there won’t be problems like the ones on the WASL. Instead there will be the basics to the advance, so dropping the basic skills is an extremely bad idea. And students need those steps in the future. So by switching this old math with the "new" is the worst idea for the students. It is crucial that we have these basic math steps in our life. So before you think of changing this to help and be noble about it, ask the students first.

Stefanie McCallister

This is for all the education personnel at the OSPI who graduated with a degree in mathematics, and anyone else who does not have a math degree but might understand math. In the example test question above the student is asked: Which player has the most difficult matches left to play? If it was a math question, shouldn't the question be "Which player has the most matches left to play." Maybe I am wrong with my understand of math. It seems to me that by adding the word difficult requires the student to infer something about the matches that have already been played. This becomes a logic question rather than a math question. Does my logic about this question vs real math seem logical?

Mathematics should be taught in steps from the simple basic addition, subtraction, multiplication, division to geometry, algebra, analytic geometry, trigonometry, then differential calculus, integral calculus. At the end of each step the student should be tested on that step's content before proceeding with the next step. Those that cannot pass the proficiency of each step should not proceed to the next higher step because of the stepwise nature of mathematics.

We have two separate problem when it comes to math education in Washington State.

First, our state standards are "a mile wide and an inch deep" resulting in our students bouncing from topic to topic and mastering none. The countries that outperform us in mathematics cover far fewer topics resulting in mastery of those topics and the building of a firm foundation in mathematics.

Secondly, the "constructivist" curriculum at play in our state requires that students "discover" their own algorithms with the teacher as "facilitator". In essence, the students are encouraged to discover 3000 years of mathematics during their 12 years in Washington State schools. The discovery method requires the teachers to accept any algorithm that works as correct, and does not allow for the teaching of the most efficient or standard algorithms to our students. The discovery process is time consuming and far from leading to greater understanding, now appears to leave the students in Washington State without basic math skills.

As to the problem posed above, I would "guess" that the answer is team 2. I can back up my answer with logic, but then other answers can be as well, so again, there is no right answer.

Robert Mac, the above is different than the two trains leaving the station problem in that it is fuzzy and does not expect the students to set up an algorithm which will work every time on every like problem they experience. There is one and only one correct answer to the two trains type problem.

Observations from an intermediate teacher of 35 years: We are all concerned about the success of our students on state assessments and in life. Teachers access many resources and search for strategies to meet the needs of kids and find the most engaging way to present academics.
(New Math is back!? It went through in the 70's too. I think every time we present another strategy to help kids, it gets that label... ahhh, bandwagons) Elementary students DO need arithmetic, drill, and practice to master the basic fact recall needed for more complex math. They need algorithms and explanation of the patterns and systems that we already know about numbers. It's only fair. It shouldn't be a secret society for kids to guess and discover. Elementary learners are not really ready, good at, or motivated to investigate the "hows" of math. They get better at it with skill development. There are 4-5th grade math students who will dig for meaning ... but not many. Just an observation.

Investigations are fine for helping kids become comfortable and develop a relationship with numbers, after they have a chance to understand basics of each part of the system. Teaching and explanation... in an engaging way!! I have watched the "discovery" method with my own child (2006 grad), and she and other capable classmates lost valuable math progress at 10th grade not being given instruction in algorithms and systems that would lead to using math, not guessing math. She has needed to patch her learning with CC classes. My child who is a nuclear engineer (1998 grad) did receive more traditional, specific instruction in systems of math, both in high school and college. His "investigations" were applications using the tools he had.

Also, it is possible that many 10th graders, may not have yet had the classes that present the work that is on the WASL in April of their sophomore year. Has that been correlated between items and curriculum?
Does the WASL match the Community College math requirements? That synch would be helpful.

In all, I think we need to determine the actual validity and value of fussing with this assessment before more money and angst gets rolling. Every review and reassess costs. Have we looked at other states' assessments, if we're trying to match "world" standards? (When we compare the WORLD scores, remember other countries may not include students who have been diverted to trade schools. America assesses a broader band of learners)
There are elements of the WASL that are encouraging our kids to step up their level of work and performance. It's good and right to expect a lot from our kids, but we do need to provide quality steps.

I am in 8th grade and am pretty strong in math and i got #2

I think the new reform math and the current way of testing math in WASL should be scraped. It is unlikely to happen though. It is very hard for a lot of parents who don't have a good understanding of math to realize how bad the reform math is. They will just think of it as a new, or may even be a better, way of teaching math. Some just send their kids to Kumon without wondering why they have to do that if the schools are teaching math properly. Without strong objection from most parents, the reform math will go on.

I wish Bergeson be voted out of the office in two years. Again, it is not very likely.

We don't need reform math. To improve the math, one place to start is stop telling out kids that math is hard and it's ok for them to hate math.

For me, I am very frustrated by the math education in our state. But it is time to let go that frustration and start thinking about what is best for my kid. I may have to bite the bullet and send my kid to private schools.

1) This question tests logic and reasoning which doesn't necessarily evaluate how well the student understands math. I think this is why other standardized tests such as the SAT separate the two into different sections. Why don't we have grades 6-12 provide separate classes that focus on the "new" math (AKA logic and reasoning) and the "traditional math" (AKA arithmetic and applied math)? Let's teach both of these equally valuable concepts.

2) The low 50% rating for students taking the math section of the WASL indicates to me that the teaching is inadequate. I recommend that both students AND TEACHERS take these tests and let the administrators compare the results. This should be a great way to identify weaknesses in the teaching system.

3) I have to admit that it took me a while to understand this problem and I work in the computer industry. The most confusing part of this question is that the problem is not well defined. The concept of "most difficult" is not defined and requires the student to make assumptions. In order to solve the problem, my first thought was to understand what the author thought to be a "difficult" match. I assumed that the length of the line was required for finding the solution. After looking at the example solution online (http://www.k12.wa.us/assessment/WASL/MathPracticeTests/MathItem31Anchors.pdf), I found that the length of the lines had nothing to do with the problem and was only introducing unnecessary information. Actually the solution assumes that the "most difficult matches left to play" are between the opponents with the most wins. Maybe the author meant that the player having the most difficult matches left to play should be assumed to be the UNDERDOG! - (This is the player with the worst record that could upset the remaining matches and still have the best record in the end by defeating others with winning records. [player 2 must win against 1 and 7 and HOPE players 6 defeats 1, 3 defeats 6 and 5 defeats 7 in their remaining matches to win it all.])

If the problem where changed to be more representative of "real world" problem, the diagram would be replaced with a win-lose chart, described as a round robin tournament and the question of "Which player has the most difficult matches left to play?" would be explicitly defined as "Which player has the least probability to win the tournament?". Now that sounds like a interesting question the a student might enjoy trying to solve. Why can't teachers figure out how to make learning fun?

I come up with #2 as well. They are the only player / Team that has to play 2 other teams with 3 Wins and only 1 loss.

But if you want creative, real world math . . . you would have to check to see which player/Team had bad days. Get yourself some inside information . . .

The flu, colds, deaths of players 2, 1, 6 or 7 would change the outcome, deaths in their families, maybe player 2 has to take the math wasl on the day he or she plays or has other Problems and feels bad the day of their upcoming contests!!

To be sure who might win / lose any of these probability and statisitics type math variables can be taken into account for this problem. It really depends on how many variables you wish to include so you can hedge your bets. But at this point one would switch over to solving via Differential Equations on a computer.

Maybe the casino's are driving our kids new math programs, LOL . . . As this is the same math you could use to figure out winning bets IF YOU KNOW BASIC MATH FIRST!! Hmmmmm . . .

AN ENGINEER

Dump the WASL now. It proves nothing and helps no one.

Lets save everyone some time and money and dump the WASL now.

A few posters commented on Terry Bergeson writing the test, and developing our state curriculum. Others commented on the curriculum being 'new age' style thinking. I wanted to say to all of those posters, that they are exactly correct! Mrs. Bergeson has written books about this very subject. In fact you can buy her books on Amazon.com. She co-authored the books with a man by the name of Robert Carkhuff. That name may sound familiar to some of you, because he has also helped to write the state's GLE's and has taught our teachers at some the state wide mandatory in service days. He is also the same person the Mrs. Bergeson got in trouble by the Attorney General's office a few years back, for awarding a government contract to, without going through the proper channels. She was fined $25,000 dollars for that! Both Mrs. Bergeson and Mr. Carkhuff went to the same college (Carkhuff before Bergeson), and Bergeson wrote her dissertation trying to prove Carkuff's theories on human cognitive development. You can request a copy of her dissertation from the U.W. if you want to read it. The books that she co-authored with him are called "The Productive Teacher 1" and "The Productive Teacher 2". If you take the time to read these, and the dissertation, you would see that the state's curriculum and the WASL are nothing more than a large test study to prove their theories correct. That explains why she is so opposed to doing away with any type of reform on the curriculum or the test, it would affect her long time study on our kids to prove their theories. This subject is much deeper than just standard math vs reform math.

Tobey,

Wish we could get our local media as interested in Bergeson's background as they are suddenly with the WASL and where it came from.

The fact that she's been allowed to profit personally from all this WASL stuff is an outrage. She has parents buying her books to help their own kids pass a test she wrote? WHY hasnt anyone put this out to the public??

The response, above, of Denise Mintzner of Thomas Jefferson High School in Federal Way, though thoughtful and with merit in its content, is an amazing example of a student who claims to have passed the WASL Writing test. Her posting is totally devoid of punctuation and capitalization. It contains several conspicuous spelling errors, was, clearly, not proof-read and is replete with incomplete phrases and sentences.

Denise, if your posting was a spoof, you did a great job. If it was not, you need to work really hard on your writing skills in the next two years. If your English teacher sees no fault with what you wrote, your observation about the teachers being the focus of the problem is the bottom of the iceberg on top of which the WASL Czar, Superintendent Teresa Bergeson, sits.

It seems like at this point we could apply the wasl problem above to our current discussion.

I think #2 is Teresa Bergeson as her fight to keep the current educational format just got a lot tougher.

#6 and 7 should be us, the public, # 6 for keeping wasl and # 7 against keeping the wasl and our current math education curriculum. Both sides are still in the fight.

and # 1 has to be Christine G. as she is also still actually leading the fight and has a way of winning against basic mathmatics in elections.

All others 3, 4 & 5 are non news-worthy opponets at this point.

One of the comments I heard was borderline hilarious and disgusting; it was something like "memorization is bad because it stifles creativity". Huh? I hate to point out the obvious, bus as an engineer I can tell you that the two are both independent and co-dependent. I can imagine any design I want; math tells me if it work in real life. What I feel about the answer, or what it does for my precious self-esteem, are irrelevant. For example, 3+2=5. It doesn't matter what language you speak, or what planet you're from; it's universal. Any kid who answers "6" is not being creative; he's wrong. This almost sounds like the namby-pamby handout mentality of not grading with a red pen cause it might hurt the kids' precious feelings. I hate to point out the obvious, but if I'm designing a bridge, my answer had better be "5", or something bad could happe n.

As to the problem at the top, I've seen it before. It's like sports; calculate the record of all seven participants, then look at each participant individually, considering which two opponents he hasn't played. The sum of the two records of the future opponents determines the difficulty; whoever's opponents have the greatest number of wins has the toughest schedule. Nothing wrong with requiring the kids to think, but they have to be able to add before they can analyze the records.

The sample problem, if it is an actual math problem in WASL, shows exactly why WASL is a bad test. This problem should not be in any high school math test. "Which player has the most difficult matches left to play?" is an ill-defined question. It looks more like a math problem if it asks "which player has the least expected number of wins in the remaining matches ?". The question then is more defined.

So, say the student is supposed to find out the player with the least expected number of wins in the remaining matches, this problem seems difficult or unsolvable.

You cannot simply add those scores up and come up with arbitrary guess. That is not mathematics. The number of players is too small to use meaningful probability. Using some sort of reasoning, I would argue that player 3 may win less matches than player 2. Player 3 has to face a strong player 6 and another player 4. Capability of player 4 is quite unknown since so far player 4 only faced mostly the strong players, and hence the lower score. If I give this as answer, I probably score 0 for this one in WASL.

Anyway, this may be a fun question to discuss in a senior class and definitely should not be a math test question.

The kids with strong verbal skills (not math skill) will do better in this kind of test. There is a lot of luck and a lot of guessing what the authors of the test questions mean.

Bergeson denies 50% failure condemns her philosophy.
Gregoire wants to promote students who fail.
Teacher Unions block grading individual teachers.
Teachers want more money.
Parents have more concern over sports than education and keep voting to keep us in this hole.

Stick with the basics. Fire the bums in office. Bust the union. Help the parent take part in the system. Actually put the children ahead of the politics for a change.

I'm an elementary school teacher, as well as a parent of a 6th grader. For myself, the math that I learned (in the 70's, by the way), was rote and completely non-meaningful. I memorized multiplication tables, but never understood the meaning. It wasn't until I was in high school that I understood what it was I was doing when multiplying and dividing. In my second year of teachinig, around 1990, I began to learn more about teaching children mathematical concepts through manipulatives. This was wonderful for my first graders. They didn't just MEMORIZE that 4+5=9, they learned that 4 objects, plus 5 more objects total 9 objects. Just MEMORIZE facts??? This is for the birds! UNDERSTANDING concepts is extremely important; THEN we ask child to memorize facts for the purpose of expediency. The math programs most districts have moved to recently go WAY too far. They are asking children to come to their own understanding. In math, there is only one answer to a problem. How you get to it is pointless in the "real world", as you can come up with it in a reasonable amount of time. There is much merit for making sure our children understand mathematical concepts, however, it is imperative that children learn the standard algorithyms. This is the failure we educators should be ashamed of. Teachers: quit backing down to the Math Reformers on your staff, and speak up!

Based on my knowledge of the WASL, the math section is really a Reading and Writing test, with a little math thrown in. Please visit wheresthemath.com

It appears to me, after listening to Russ Killingsworth, that most advocates of the "new math" have an elitist, ivory tower, stay-the-course mentality. This group of instructors should be dismissed from teaching for incompetence.

It is impossible to understand how educated people can believe this wasl test is the way to go. We have so much out there to tell us this is not the way to go. If we cannot improve on our math system then stay with what works . until you can come up with something better. More money is a cop out we have pored money into the system for years only to gp farther and farther behind. This is government working for government grow thier system only
,yes, at the very costly expence of our children. We need to get rid of our number 1 school administrater and anyone who wants to push something like this down our throats experement on somethig other then our children We have enough money to have the best school system in the world but until you get politics out of it, it is not going to get any better but it is going to get worse. Sad so very sad.

well, just shortly, i was personally subjected to this sorry excuse of a math program for 6 years since my 7th grade year when the program was introduced. I was right off the bat labled as normal and not advanced and set off on a path of crappy teaching (because no one knew how to teach it) and misunderstanding of this new english class i thought was supposed to be math. I was rarely ever taught how to actually use equations and how to actually compute the information once i extracted it out of the silly books of stories. I made my way through middle school and high school fine in the end. I might point out that i had no problems with doing the actual math portion once shown how to use the equations, etc. So, i get through to my junior year where i had to take my pre-sat. I had a test placed in front of me that had nothing at all to do with what i had just been taught for the previous 5 years. Yes, i was at a loss for what to do with these plain math problems that weren't hidden in a story. I did worse on the math portion than on the english, and english was a harder subject for me. I then went on to college where i didn't even try to take any advanced math at all and just did an intro course to college algebra (i did do a lot of trigonometry and loved that). It was foreign and i had a difficult time understanding it. From my own experiences, this "reformed math" crap DOES NOT prepare people for 1) college and 2) real life. Now any adult who is familiar with math enough can say that oh yes, its working. but they can say that because they already have a basis in math that they learned "the old traditional way that's been around for thousands of years and still works". However, the kids now that go through this program don't have that mathematical basis of the basics of math and don't learn what they need to know to "problem solve" these story problem monstrousoties. Teach us the computational part first and then the extraction of information and stories will fall in to place on their own. But stories do us no good unless we know what to do with them!

For those of you who like the current math curriculim and the WASL, you may skip my comments, because you will not like them. I am aghast at the new math curriculum. Totally aghast. I was a math major in college, yet had real difficulty trying to understand my son's junior high and high school math homework. This cirriculum might work for a select group of students that already have a strong basis in the fundamentals of mathematics, but trying to impress this thinking process on each and every student at this level is a horrendous waste of time and energy. The average student (think: what used to be a C average, but is now probably a high B or low A, with grade inflation) has need for basic math, useful math. Going to be a carpenter? A mechanic? A store clerk? Great, your mentors will show you how to apply your BASIC math skills in order to succeed at the job. Slowing the whole class in order to try to get the slowest learner to 'get' the new math curriculum, in order to pass a flawed test designed by a flawed educational system is utter nonsense. Everyone should have a shot at the basics, at math skills that they may truly apply in their lives. Some will not learn. Such is life. Others will not be challenged. For those, we have advanced placement classes. Without solid math basics, our country will continue to march solidly to the rear, no matter how much time and money we throw at the school system.

This might not be a math problem,

But it's definitely been a problem for 520 years,

www.TheBiggestBibleMistakeEver.com

I am a student of the Mount Vernon High School, set to graduate in 2009. As a ninth grader I took the WASL early and passed Reading, Writing, and Math with a 4. During the time that I took the WASL I was in Geometry. I think its ridiculous to blame the WASL scores entirely on the math curriculum and method of teaching it. I agree that the basics need to be enforced in the younger grades, but the curriculum suited me and many others fine. Its an untimed test and I took advantage of that. Others in the classroom that I was testing in finished with a half an hour, sometimes an hour to spare. I don't know if they passed, but I'm sure some of them didn't. Responsibility rests on the student as much as the teacher or the curriculum. If the students that didn't pass had taken time to ask questions in class and pay attention, and then on the WASL took the time to completely show their work and give genuine thought to the question, I think they would have gotten a much better score. I personally like the current curriculum with its story problems and believe that requiring passing the Reading, Writing, and Math parts of the WASL to graduate is a good idea because in the real world you have to be able to adapt your knowledge to any situation, which story problems help you learn to do and you need math at least some of the time.

I believe basic math is the way to go.

This is considered math? The problem isn't just the WASL, the problem is education reform in total. Washington State has spent billions implementing a failed system of education. Kids are suffering for it and the legislature doesn't seem to care so long as the federal grant money keeps filling the Washington coffers. Education reform is not about educating children for intelligence; rather it is about producing workers to compete in a global economy where the standard is far lower and the wage scale far less than that which has previously made America one of the greatest economic powers ever.

I believe that school fails to teach the basics that lead up to college level math. My first question that to the school administration is, how does this prepare students for Calculus or higher level math? It doesn't. In order for students to advance up through the ranks of mathematics they have to know how to perform the basics. The math that they are teaching belongs in statistics and probability or a logic class. There should be a required math level that the student should have to successfully complete, for instance high school calculus. When I graduated in 1998, the highest math I took was geometry. I was not even aware of calculus or even encouraged to pursue higher math. I believe that a test like this is not appropriate. I believe that required completion of a specific class level is more appropriate.

The above question is a fine logic question, but has nothing to do with math. Basic math is just that.... the basics. The basis for all further studies, including logic. I would rather see questions asking how to count change, or if you have a sheet of 8 1/2 X 11 sandpaper that needs to be divided in 3rd, what size is each piece. Real world stuff. If the kids arent passing the tests, you have 2 choices, do a better job of teaching, of make the tests easier. You can always count on polititians to make the wrong choice.

I viewed your program this evening. I agree with the Professor that the program is working and it will take some time to make the transition from the traditional program to the new program.
The Professor did not place enough emphasis on the changes in society and the type of mathematics people will need in the future. Traditional calculating skills do present an organized body of knowledge with which students should be acquainted but modern calculators and computer negate the necessity for people to be extremely proficient in these skills. Instead people need more than ever to understand estimation and the reasonableness of an answer to an arithmetic problem.
Finally the problem you presented is a simulated real world problem that leads to network problems, a large facet of modern computations.

Dave Daugharty

I am a grade 4 teacher. Unfortunately, many people see computational skills as rote learning (which they are not).

For example, 8 x 6 = is a question needing thinking skills! The teacher need only ask the students to proof that 8 X 6 is 48.

The student has to show that they really understand multiplication. The variety of answers are almost infinite. Here are some sample answers from students!

8 X6 = 48 because I know that 8 X 5 is 40 and then I just need to add 8.

Many students will draw 6 circles with the number 8 in the circles.

8 X6 = 48 because 8 + 8 = 16 and 16 plus 16 plus 16 is 48.

8 X6 = 48 because 8 x 7= 56 so just subtract 8 because it is one less 8.

Those people who say we should teach problem solving rather than just the basics do not realize that all basic facts should be taught as problem solving questions first! (Later, they will be memorized)

Teaching the basics well requires creative thinking, a multitude of ways to get the answer (even if there is only one answer)and problem solving!

So, let's turn the debate into a problem solving exercies. There may not be one right answer but hopefully the one we choose will not be wrong!

I think that the school system in Washington is failing our students. They need to go back to the basics in math and phonics. The basics gets the students started and from there they can advance and understand what they are learning. I also know from experience that the public school system fails to meet the educational needs of those with disabilities. What's wrong with the system that they turn their heads the other way when the going gets tough. I do realize however that there are great teachers out there that could do so much more but their hands are tied. It's time to speak up and fight for our children and their futures because they are our future.

After reading some of the posts here, I'm left wondering where all these parents have been all these years.

There are two quotes from relevant documents which really tell the whole impetus and story behind education reform, not only in Washington State but across the United States. The first is from "America's Choice: high skills or low wages!" put out by the National Center on Education and the Economy (NCEE). For those who don't know, NCEE was heavily involved in implementing education reform in Washington State starting with the Schools for the 21st Century pilot project in 1988 (yes, 1988). The Schools for the 21st Century pilot project did not even meet the mandates of the laws governing it. On an objective scale, the pilot was a colossal failure. On a subjective, feel-good, anecdotal scale, the pilot was proclaimed a roaring success.

The following quote is from page 25 of "America's Choice: high skills or low wages!:

"But in a broad survey of employment needs across America, we found little evidence of a far-reaching desire for a more educated workforce."

Straight from the horses' mouth folks, and there you have it. Wonder why your child isn't getting an education in Washington's government controlled schools? Go back and re-read the quote. For all their pontificating, the goal of education reform is NOT a more intelligent, better educated child.

Then consider this quote, from a publication of the Washington State Workforce Training and Education Coordinating Board, called "High Skills, High Wages"; published in 1994. From page 65 comes this little telling gem which explains why the goal of education is not a more intelligent, better educated child:

"To succeed in high performace work organizations, today's students must master the new basic skills — teamwork, critical thinking, making decisions, communication, adapting to change and understand whole systems."

Do you see anything about reading, writing and arithmetic in the "new basic skills"? Do you wonder why your children, being educated in the government schools of Washington State aren't getting an education?

Under education reform, content takes a backseat to process, defined by the "new basic skills". The purpose of the WASL is to determine if the child has mastered the wanted process. Content is only incorporated as it is used and applied (applied academics) in addressing the wanted process.

Still wonder why your child isn't getting a good education in Washington's government schools?

There is no amount of tweaking that will cure the failing education system in Washington State.

There are methods for educating children for intelligence. But they don't require more and more money, and certainly not the $10,000 per student now being spent in Washington State.

Curt wrote:
8 X6 = 48 because I know that 8 X 5 is 40 and then I just need to add 8

This is not a proof of 6x8 = 48. This is a way to come to the answer clumsily by kids who are not taught to memorize the multiplication facts.

Kids should understand the basic meaning of multiplication of 8x6 = 8+8+8+8+8+8+8. Do a few multiplcations using plain addition. Then, they should memorize the multiplication facts to get to the answer the most effective way and not wasting time and get a lot confused by doing this 8x6 = 8x5 + 8 because their teacher tell them that remembering 8x6 = 48 is such a hugh task.

It is totally BS that kids will understand the basic concept better this way.

What scares me is that some teachers actually think that those clumsy ways of computation are mathematical proofs.

As a parent with 2 kids in elementary school, I am very disappointed with how the math is taught. The underlying idea for "new math" system may be that it is teaching kids to "think". However, I think it is a lofty idea when kids have not mastered and/or have not been taught the basic math skills in school. I, for one, don't think it is a bad idea for kids to learn by drills or memorization (such as with multiplication table.) Learning math, like any other subject, requires you to know the basic language and then gradually build on the knowledge acquired. Kids need structure in the curiculum presented and clear expectations. My experience now with the math subject in school is that they are asking for different ways of thinking and there may not be a right or wrong answer. Young kids often get confused because they have not yet developed the ability to think abstractly. Along these confused kids are many frustrated parents who don't know how to help because they don't know what is expected. We are now ended up with lots of kids who dislike math and couldn't do basic arithematics. As statistics have shown, U.S. kids are falling way behind.

The WASL question presented is asking more about logic than math. Though it may be a good thing for kids to master, the challenge is that there is no consistent way of teaching. Without good/consistent way of teaching, there is no good way to assess the effectiveness of our teaching program. No wonder many (teachers, student, parents) are complaining that WASL is not a good measurement. We definately need to change our math program but I don't think "new math" is the solution. We do not need to re-invent the wheel. Our educators need to broaden their view and learn from other systems that are better than what we are doing so that our kids will be competitive in the global market.

I always thought and I still think that the WASL is a waste. My son a 2008 graduate finally did pass the WASL but not until after summer school for math wasl and a family vacation tubed.(Time we can never get back with our children) He only missed the first by two points. I'm not sure what would hurt more two points or fifty. Oh yeah, he hates math now. (But not to worry right? At least he passed the WASL--he may hate math but oh well.) So thank you WASL people for making school(math) so enjoyable for all. We certainly benefited from the superior thought process called WASL. Also with no thanks to the local school district for proper preparation, my son did have all the math it is now suggested to pass the wasl. There is nothing wrong with basics drilled well and properly. Think also about the "greatest generation". They had the basics and look what they were able to accomplish for this nation.

there seems to be a basic disconnect between the way math is taught in Washington State schools and the test that is supposed to determine math knowledge for Washington state school students. I have read and seen news stories quoting teachers complaining about having to "teach to the test" versus "teaching the subject." Obviously (at least to me) the teachers and the test writers are not talking to each other. Were they to do this, a good deal of the irritation, frustration and rage that is being exhibited by parents and students and the general public regarding the apparent "failure" of the state' s students would be reduced if not eliminated.

The way they are teaching math has no real relation to actual "math". Law makers in the area of teaching are going to dumbify the students of america. Take a real life situation: a girl working at McDonalds, who grows up with a calculator and doesn't know the simplest of normal mathematics, is given $20 for a $19.36. She begins to draw out the 64 cents of change as the driver gives her a penny and a dime (that's 11 cents by the way). She can't understand that the change she's about to give can simply be added as such, 64+11=75 cents... So, she begins to cry and has to call her manager and have him explain it to her. In such occurance, if our government would give greater attention to the importance of simple mathematics the girl wouldn't have to be fired from every single job because the people taking over her job recieved one-on-one tutoring. Electricians need to know mathematics like the back of their hand in-order to perform the simplest of jobs. Myself, I plan on becoming a math teacher, but if the math that I have grown to love changes into another aray of english class I don't believe the fun I had tutoring will be quite what I have dreamed up. Sure, dreaming of being a math teacher may not be the usual, especially for a female, but when I began to understand the beautiful language of math I fell in-love. I just hope that what I fell in-love with will still be there waiting for my students (of the future) to fall in-love with, is that so hard to ask? If anyone hears this, please tell our government the way they're teaching math breaks my heart. -Amanda Hanson

I was dumbfounded when my 10 year old had a math problem that asked HOW he arrived at the answer to 8 x 9. Were they getting him started on the concept of a mathematical proof??!!. If only we were that fortunate. If the kids first learn a simple thing like the multiplicaton table, there would be more time to teach them the comcepts that lead into algebra and calculus. My other children have had to go through this type of circuitous way of solving what should be a simple COMPUTATION. What irritates me is that the teachers are told to teach the kids the longest way to solve a problem and then the tests (e.g. WASL) are given with a time limit where the shortest and simplest method would be best. I would bet that the decline in the math skills of American students began shortly after the implementation of the "new math" by those administrative "education policy" types who needed to do something different to justify their existence. As for Bergeson and Gregroire, I'll work to vote them out of office.

I wrote a quick Perl computer program to tell me the answer. And guess what: the program uses math! Some people said, "I think the answer is ..." I know what it is, because I can calculate it, and check the calculations.

However, I only calculated based on records of opponents. Player 2 is the correct answer, because player 2's opponents have a combined (average) win pct. of .750. Player 1 has the next hardest schedule, at .625. Player 4 has the easiest schedule, at .250.

If I calculated the strength of schedule for each of the opponents, it gets a bit more complicated: as others have said, the problem is ill-defined. Some have touched on whether "difficulty" should be in relationship to the skill level of the player himself. But even then, who says that record alone determines relative difficulty? Should not we consider strength-of-schedule, for already-played games, of each remaining opponent?

Player 4 has only a .250 remaining opponent record, but its remaining opponents (3 and 5) have the greatest combined already-played opponents' records. So if I decided to give strength-of-schedule, for already-played games, greater weight than record, I could end up with Player 4 being the correct answer.

The question should be, simply: "which player has the teams with the best combined record left to play?"

Now, I will add that there is only one *reasonable* correct answer, because any other "correct" answer will require assumptions be made (such as how much to weigh strength-of-schedule for already-played games for remaining opponents, as opposed to the record of those opponents), and in taking a test such as this, it's reasonable to assume that the answers will not require any such assumptions. The only reasonable answer that requires no such assumptions is the one based on the record of remaining opponents.

What really bothered me was the man's answer to Robert's question about whether we are sacrificing technical math skills in favor of problem-solving experience, and the answer was basically, "no, because those skills were lacking already." Sigh. Can't he see that therefore we should do a better job of teaching those skills instead of just giving up?

First, we sacrificed a generation of students on the altar of Whole Language and turned them into functional illiterates. History is once again repeating itself; only this time the education wingnuts have redesigned/reformed Math. Only 51% of the sophomores passed the Math WASL - these numbers aren't going to improve, because students are no longer being taught basic computational skills! We can't fail another generation of students because of politics; Gov Gregoire and Sup't Bergeson are both supporters of reform math. We need to put pressure on the Governor and our legislators to act now.

Oh, and one more thing: I've added "new math" to the list of reasons why we are homeschooling are children. My daughter is four years old and can add and subtract. I wonder how long it will be before she knows more math than the average WA public high school student.

Reform math is a disaster. To those who have not looked through a reform math book........please do so. I am an 8th grade math teacher. Most of the kids in Washington have been taking reform math for 5 or more years. I can tell you that is DOES NOT Work. Every day students ask me the most basic things. Most do not know the difference between even and odd, how to add, subtract, multiply, divide, or do just about any other math operation without a calculator. To those who say that I am advocating for "drill and kill", I say that without a foundation, kids will never be able to progress in math or think creatively to solve problems. Trying to solve math problems without computational fluency is like trying to drive across the country, while stopping every mile for gas!!

Kids need both computational fluency and problem solving skills. Algebra is especially important, as it is the "gatekeeper" to a college education. Reform math is especially weak in algebra. Even with parents spending $150 million a year on private tutoring, only half of Washington's 10th graders passed the WASL. It's time to change what we are doing. It's time to bring mathematicians into the mix. We need a Math Advisory Council which is comprised of mathematicians to oversee the decisions made by OSPI. Without oversight, we will continue to see more of the same.......computationally illiterate kids.

I don't feel there is anything wrong with the new math. I understand that children do still need to be taught the basics, but to get minds stimulated into thinking logically is the best for anyone. I hated story questions when I was young, but now, I understand why they were there. Anyways, I did not come to this site to debate, I actually came to figure out the WASL problem and was hoping that the answer would be posted as well. Oh well, my answer was #2 has the hardest match to play because he/she has the most losses and has to play #7 who has won the most matches. That is my conclusion to the question and why.

Stephanie,

Then please, by all means, pay my portion of the upped taxes that Ms. Bergeson and Ms. Gregoire will be requiring of both of us to keep this failed plan afloat.

We headed out to private school to make sure our kiddo at least gets a shot at a life after education. So, we're already paying double for education.

You dont mind, do you?

I am a fifth grade teacher and I work in a Blue Ribbon, award-winning elementary school where virtually all of our 3rd, 4th, and 5th grade students pass the math WASL. The WASL is not the problem. We base our success on a BALANCED program of math instruction that includes basics AND the "new" constructivist math. My colleagues and I believe that neither math extreme (drill and kill, or find your own way) is what's best for children. Despite our past success our district has jumped on the "new math" bandwagon this year and teachers in our district are no longer allowed to teach basic math facts, formulaes, or operations. Teacher morale has plummeted and many students are now frustrated and struggling, Different students learn in different ways. When they receive a balanced program of instruction all students get what they need and are then well-prepared for the WASL or any other math test.

I am a mother of 2 children with a strong math and science background. I have wittnessed the kids not being taught basic arithmetic skills to automaticity in elementary school. I have also witnessed 1st graders learning to use a calculator to computate addition and subtraction.
I recently went back to school and saw first hand in my chemistry class how this reformed math has affected our in resident kids at the college. There was one student who lives locally and she has hopes of being a doctor but has no idea how to use algebra to solve her chemistry problems. It was an alarming moment when both of us looked at each other and realized that she had no clue as to what I was explaining to her and that she was going to have to take math courses and essentially start over. What a shame because she should have been taught this in her Washington State public school education. The majority of the students who were in the class were from other countries and their math skills were solid. They were fast "plugger and chuggers" and calling on their math skills was ingrained and second nature to them.
This made me start to think.
Shortly after that, my girlfriend called and asked if I could help with tutoring her Sophmore daughter because she was failing math in the Issaquah School District. I began to help and found that she did not know her basic multiplication tables or how to divide and that a fraction is a division expression. This should be taught to children by grade 3.
This is basic stuff and lays the foundation for our educated youth to be able to compete in the global economy later on.
I am now a total proponent of "Where"s the Math" and doing away with the reformed math curriculum.
Drills, drills and more drills are the way to go. Seriously looking at other successful math programs such as Singapore Math or Saxon is highly recommended.
When a Washington State child enters college THEN he/she can use their mathematical prowress to CREATIVELY solve a physics kinematics problem by knowing to use calculus or trigonometry AND that they can use both.

I still can't believe people wonder why certain parents choose to homeschool their children. Teachers, administration, politics.... It amazes me that there is any learning done in schools at all. The PS system in this state revloves around strikes, threats, and false promises. No two school districts use the same basic curriculum, yet ALL graduating students are now required to pass that rediculous WASL. The students aren't even recieving a well-rounded education anymore. High school students waste credits in a 'WASL Prep' class. Since when does learning how to pass a test count for education? And what in the WORLD were they thinking when they came up with the test? Half the teachers and parents of these students couldn't pass it. Yet, if a district fails too many times, they lose critical funding neccessary to raise those scores.

Shows like this bring it home. I am so glad I homeschool my chilren.

I am a 3rd/4th grade teacher and I would like for our state to look hard at what CA and a few other states are doing to provide balanced math instruction. Let's turn this barreling locomotive around. My students are struggling.

This whole math topic has such a huge impact on everyone in the state, there are so many areas for improvement and this is such a convoluted mess, where do we begin?

Maybe we should look at why our state needs a special test, WASL, when other states use any of the hundreds of standardized tests available on the market. Why do we spend countless tax dollars to adminster the WASL test and correct it, then spend at least 3 weeks of the students time each year to teach to the test when other tests are already available for our use. What a waste of valuable teaching time for both the teachers and the students.

Interesting point: Homeschoolers are not even allowed to take this test. They are required every year to take one of any of the hundreds of standardized normed tests available on the market. This testing requirement is a state law however OSPI determines the list of tests which homeschoolers may choose from? Why does OSPI require homeschoolers to use a different test? Do they want to ensure that there is no way to compare test results of homeschoolers to the scores of public school students. Curious....

My 2 sons who are homeschooled and are currently in the 4th and 5th grades, looked at the WASL math question presented on this program and they each determined the correct answer in less than 10 minutes. The comment from both of them was, "Mom, why do they call this Math? I did not use any Math to solve this problem. It seems more like a logic problem or a graph problem. It does not require any adding, subtracting, multiplying or dividing so how can this be math?"
I completely agree with them. This problem simply requires critical thinking and logic. In fact, anyone who has followed their favorite sports team to a state or national tournament could probably arrive at the correct answer.

Next question I have: Why do we allow teachers from any discipline to teach the subject of Math in our public schools? Math is a specialized subject and requires in-depth working knowledge of the subject in order to properly teach it. Each level in Math is the basis for the next level. You must learn the basics before you move on to the next level. In our state, a person who graduated with a degree in home Economics or in Physical Education or any discipline, is allowed to teach Math if they choose. There is no restiction to prevent them from pursuing a position as a Math teacher. Why is this?

Next concern: If there are countries or other states that are having success with their math programs, why are we not using them as our example? This in itself seems elementary to me. Let's stop trying to re-invent the wheel when there are plenty out there to copy. Is this simply a matter of the creator of the WASL not wanting to admit defeat, not wanting to give up on a bad idea? It seems that a smart person would periodically review the results they were achieving and be willing to make changes to the program if it is not working. 10 years with "new Math" seems to be long enough to determine that it is not working. I think there has been enough damage to countless students and to our economy and our future workforce to justify changing the way we teach math. Our kids need basic Arithmetic skills, addition, subtraction, multiplication, division, fractions, geometry and algebra.

Another question: Why do we have non-mathematicians creating the math standards and the math test which our students are required to take? University and College Math professors are complaining that High School graduates are entering their schools without the required math skills to begin college/university level math courses. It seems to me that since these professors are the customers of the High Schools, (they receive the end product; the students,) the High school administration would be very interested in knowing what these professors are expecting from the HS math students. Maybe these professors should set the standards and create the test.

Maybe the professors should evaluate the performance of our HS's based on the knowledge of the incoming Freshmen to the college or University. This would give the public an unbiased evaluation of a HS's performance. Then parents should be able to choose which HS their kids will attend. Maybe a little competition will be good for our schools.

Maybe our administrators and superintendant needs some incentive to improve our math programs. What if the administrators and superintendant's salaries were determined by the % of students who fail the WASL. If 49% fail, lower the adminstrations salaries by the same percentage. I like this idea. I believe this would greatly motivate the admin to improve the math programs, as long as they are not allowed to also create the tests.

In the long run, this problem will affect everyone, every people who have no children. These HS graduates will soon be running our country, voting, attempting to hold down jobs. If math skills are so poor these people cannot keep their jobs, unemployment and welfare will increase and this affects everyone. If you are concerned about the current state of our math education, please speak up. Contact your legislature and let your concerns be heard. Nothing will change if you do not voice your opinions and concerns. This affects us all.
TS
a concerned homeschool parent.

My take on the whole math issue comes from years of experience and three children who were educated both in the UK and the US.
New math, old math, math is math and it is the only exact science we have. I think that the children need to learn the basics to a point of mastering them. This teaching of a mile wide and an inch deep is no way to teach any subject and most especially math. The questions that were shown from the WASL were not "math", they were analytical thinking puzzles. While less than 1/2 of our children (as demonstrated by the WASL scores) have learned to think beyond the box more than 1/2 hasn’t. Most parents are pleased when they remember to take out the garbage. In saying this I mean that the children in 4th, 7th , and yes even 10th grade levels do not have the maturity to think analytically yet. Math is more than 2+2, it teaches you to think. It never stops giving you that ability, but these children at these ages have yet to mature to a three dementional thinking level. I remember in school during the 70's learning the 2+2 of math, then once I hit high school learning Algebra and gaining the three dementional through Geometry, Algebra 2, and Trig. In the past 5 years I have watched how we as a state have become a society of teaching towards a test through my own children. When our youngest daughter went to university 3 years ago and took the math placement test she scored at a level that suggested she be in a Masters Program Math Class skipping several math levels. Well, she did take the highest maths in high school and passed with A's so she went for it. This proved to be the worst decision. Because she had not taken the appropriate basics that lead to this level she did not succeed. She had to drop the class and take another more appropriate leveled class the next term. With the use of calculators in early grades we have stifled our children’s natural brain growth. Keep the calculators out of our math classes until middle school and our children will learn to find their own shortcuts and patterns and in turn start to learn to think analytically. Stiffening their confidence with failed WASL after failed WASL has shown that children will go for the non science majors at university and we as a nation will continue to fall behind all of those countries that we are so desperately competing with today.

Most of these comments seem to be from intelligent and informed people. Intelectually, I don't hold a candle to them. But from a typical parent's perspective and what seems to me as common sense, the WASL isn't serving it's purpose as it exists. Why doesn't the simple idea of teaching each level of math progressively, teaching it well, testing each level with earnest and requiring each step to be passed in order to go to the next level, good enough anymore? If a designated level of math is not passed then the student has not earned the math credit to graduate. Simple. If the teachers are teaching well, the curriculum is understandable and the students are learning it then the bases are covered. Simply, if students were being educated as they should in the first place, why is their education put to one, final test? It actually looks like we're testing the teachers and the material but the students are facing the penalty for what the system didn't do.

I have an analytical/logic question, or under the current definition of math, a math question:

A pregnant woman consumes enough alcohol on a daily basis to become inebriated even though she knows and research shows that daily inebriation causes birth defects.

A government school systematically produces illiterate children because it is using a educational philosophy that has been shown and proven, repeatedly and over time, to be a failure.

If the first case is considered child abuse, what is the second case?

In math terms, if the first case is considered child abuse, what is percentage probability that the second case is also child abuse?

Lynn,

Exchange your word "abuse" for "experiment" and still... it should be an outrage that Bergeson has been allowed to do this to a state full of children for the past 14 years.

But since the WEA is a political machine, and not in the business of educating, we will have to wait two more years to try and vote her out.

Which will unlikely happen since the WEA is a PAC, and they will bring a lot pressure to bear on teachers and the union to keep her in that slot.

Follow the money - Wa. State is in the death grip of Liberals who have no idea how to educate. We have all the evidence we need and yet .. nothing is changing.

It appears the majority of us responding here (myself included) agree that the current math curriculum is failing, as are Bergeson and Gregoire in their strategy to address and fix the problem. We also agree the truth is undeniable -- basic computational skills are required for logic and problem solving.

I encourage everyone who agrees here to be part of the solution of fixing our failed math curriculum by joining the public lobbying effort featured in this story -- Shalimar Backman's
Where's The Math? today. It only takes a minute to join at Wheresthemath.com
Please don't stop here. Together we can make this change happen. We can keep the spotlight and pressure on Bergeson, Gregoire and all decision makers in the process to fix this problem now. The sooner we fix the curriculum and train our teachers the better our children will be. Let's get this done! Colleen

Here is a problem from a 6th grade CMP book called Bits and Pieces that our children are currently working in.

John goes to the store and buys the following
Taco shells $2
Avocados $4
Salsa $3
Beans $2

1.John has $10. Does he have enough to buy everything?
2. What is John trying to make for his friends?

Now go to www.wheresthemath.com and sign the petition to get back to the basics.

I wonder if my kid who graduated from a Wa. State public school could do that problem up above.

She did have to take remedial math in college, and finally just gave up and went into a degree plan with little to no math required of her.

Where will the sciences find capable and qualified people to fill those jobs when the Boomers start retiring? The boomers will take a LOT of people out of the professional jobs and at this rate, we wont be able to fill them with equally trained adults.

I pity all of us who will be at the mercy of a significantly under-educated populace who cannot make the wages that will be necessary to support all of those aging boomers.

If the Left wants the entire world on the 'even playing field' they have just about succeeded in bringing America to her knees. We have already been surpassed by India and China, who know that educating the youth in the hard sciences (math, science and technology) is their key to their future as a country.

What is America going to do?

Cynthia

A lot of good information in this blog.

I wonder why the PTAs are not doing anything about this very important issue. It seems to me it is our only hope. We have to make a large number of parents be aware of this mess. Anyone understands why PTAs are not looking into the problem?

To fix the problem, we have to ask the legistrature to scrape the WASL and choose a national standard test. Using a good test to measure result will drive the schools to use good teaching methods. There are a lot of good teachers out there. They know how to teach good maths. Give them the freedom not to teach the new maths. This mess will only go away if we replace WASL.

We need legislations that are specific. Otherwise, it will just go back to Bergeson for solutions and there won't be any.

Don't blame the governor. She cannot fire Bergeson. We the people elected Bergeson. The governor has no choice but work with Bergeson in order not to fail 49% of our HS students.

In 1980 as a Math Teacher I had many debates with my peers about this topic. Some of us taught computation and others taught problem attack strategies. Math is a set of tools we use to arrive at logical answers. Basic math (add, subtract, multiply, divide) is just one of many tools for solving problems. Geometry, Algebra, Business Math, Computer Programming are all other tools. Some students just couldn't memorize addition and multiplication tables. They failed if they took math from the computational teacher. Many of these students were great problem solvers when it came to logic or business problems. Math is a set of tools like an orchestra is a set of instruments. Just because a student is poor at playing a violin doesn't make them a bad drums player. Math is also a common language for a people. Don't drive all kids to years of addition and multiplication when there is so much more there.

It is hard to know where to begin. There is so much misinformation icluded in these blogs. Let's begin with Representative Andersen's misrepresented information. Where did he get the number begin spent on math tutoring? How can we possibly believe that number without proof? How do we know tha is all being spent to help students using "reform" math? Maybe it is being used to tutor students for AP math or calculus? Maybe it is being spent on non-English speaking students. Until we see some proof of that number we need to reject it a political rhetoric.
I am sure Ms. Bachman and her colleagues are sincere in their desire to help their own children learn math but they are getting bad information from multiple unreliable sources. First, the math crisis only exists because OSPI decided that every 10th grade student had to pass the WASL by a certain date. The facts are as follows: When the WASL was first given in 96-97 to 4th grade 48% passed reading and 21.4% passed math. Those were the good old days when most schools were using "traditional" Saxon like math books. The 05-06 results were 81.2 % passing in reading and 58.9% passing in math. A gain of 33.2% in reading and a gain of 37.5% in math. A gain and the mathematics instruction has changed! Seventh grade results show similar patterns, a growth of 23.1% in reading and 28.4% in math. Math started lower because of the kill and drill programs but is making steady progress. We have spent millions more in reading instruction and staff development and have less to show for it. This looks like a reading crisis to me. In fact, reading scores in 7th grade fell from 69% in 04-05 to 61.5% in 05-06. Comparing 10th grade scores is a bit more complex. The first year the WASL was given to 10th grade was 98-99. 51.4% passed reading while only 33.0% passed math. We had a crisisback in 1999. 04-05 scores for reading were 72.9% and 51% for math. Why did reading gain more than math? It was not the curriculum. It is time on task and integration. Math is taught 60 minutes a day in elementary classrooms (if your lucky). In middle and high school it is tught 45-50 minutes. That is a difference of 50+ minutes a week. That is at least 36 lesssons per school year that 7-10 grade students get less than 1-6 Students while studying more complex material. The second reason is that reading is integrated into every class a student takes. In essence they practice reading skills all day and at home if they are lucky. Most students practice math only in math class. The facts are that we are making steady progress in math despite the fact that we spend much more on reading instruction both in time and money. The question that needs to be asked is why is math being held to a higher performance standard than reading? A couple other points came up on the show. Several people mentioned California as a model of math standards and instruction. Be careful what you wish for! There is data to show that the CA Standards have not improved math education at all. Most of CA students have had their instruction based on these standards created almost 10 years ago. Take a look at the current performance data on the CA Dept. of Ed. website. You will find that 23% of students are proficient in Alegebra 1 by the end of HS a gain of 2 pts. over four years. At the Algebra 2 level only 45% of CA students actually take the course and only 25% are proficient, a loss of 4% points over 4 years. Three years of college prep math are required, four recommended for entrance into CA colleges and universities yet less than 12% of CA HS graduates now have the minimum proficiencies expected by higher instituitions. These numbers don't even take into account the 30% drop out of HS. World Class standards??? Hardly, CA is one state you do not want to emulate or look to solutions in mathematics instruction or programs used. Now on to the Fordham Foundation. It is an ultra-conservative think tank in Washington D.C. Made up of former members of both Bush Education Departments. Their goal is to push the national agenda toward charter schools. They have no standing in the mainstream education community. Professor DAvid Klein (featured on the program) developed the rubric for Fordham Foundatio to use to evaluate state standards. He also wrote CA Standards with three other individuals. I wonder how CA got an A? What makes his criteria for evaluation the "best"? The reality of the state math standards is most are similar and most are based to some degree on NCTM standards. The difference comes in states like Washington where local school boards want to keep some local control and most states do or where the state government wants to control. It is a fact that states that control the list of materials that are adopted do not perform as well nationally as states that allow local control.
Mr. Mak feel free to contact me for more information that is factual and accurate, not anecdotal as most that comes out of Where's the Math. The facts are out there...All interested would be better served by leaving the labels aside. What is "new" math. Math is math is math and always has been. There is nothing new about it. The skills and concepts are the same. The approaches to instruction may be different. What is "reform"? What is "traditional"? Our children are better served in classrooms where teachers are well trained, possess the content knowledge needed to teach well using balanced programs.

Ms. Bergeson, is that you?

If so, you cannot possibly hope to tell hundreds or thousands of parents that their experiences are "wrong" with their own children!

It is this elistist attitude that is costing children of this state to lose so much time, education and money trying to fit into your weird study.

A LOT of us have researched you inside and out and know what you come from, and where you are headed. We know about your relationships and who is making money off of whom.

It is just best for this state (and the entire country) if you, and people like you, are scrubbed out of their jobs as 'educators' and replaced with professionals who know a thing or two about math.

A lot of us are making it our personal problem to make sure you are exposed and fired off the public money train in two more years.

YOU do not have a right to experiment on kids - you certainly have no right to make money off of those same tests. All the while stating that 'we are headed in the right direction, yet need to change course.'

YOU DO NOT DESERVE any more tax payer funded programs or money. You have failed, and the public is livid and educated about you now.

Ms. Bergeson,

Can you take the test publically and pass it? Trying to get thru that one large paragraph up above was tedious at best.

I found several basic spelling, grammar and punctuation errors - and you are the head of education in this state?

Ms. Bergeson, what is the magic number that will make teachers 'proficient' and why, after 14 years in your position as leader, has this not occurred yet?

I'd really like to know if its a number I can live with or not.

My last comment was deleted, not quite sure why? I will say again, I do believe in the new math. I have 3 children grades 1, 4, & 6. My girls all know the multiplication tables, they know long division and they have already done problem solving much like algebra. I personally believe that the way this new math teaches our children how to think logically is amazing. I was never taught about "how did you come to this conclusion" if I had, maybe I wouldn't have been so confused when beginning algebra. Algebra seemed like it was in a foreign language and it didn't make sense, it does now that I am older and have learned how to problem solve. Wish I learned when I was younger, maybe college would've been sooner instead of later for me.

My 4th grader is not the fastest learner and has been struggling and behind her whole young life. Her whole school life has been this new kind of learning and guess what...she passed her first WASL last year. It just proves that it doesn't take a genious to pass the WASL's just understanding the questions and learning how to disect them and think about how to get there.

Sorry Cynthia & Jeff You have the wrong Terry I am a male retired teacher with a PhD in Education(I will blame the spelling errors on poor typeing skills in old hands) I just wanted to set the record straight. We have to rely on facts to make good decisions. Thank you for being interested in our future.

Terry,

My comment still stands. You may have a PHd in Education, but millions of parents in this state see firsthand the trap their own children are in.

If you havent read all the parents and teachers on this thread, then maybe you should set aside your ego and hear us.

14 years of Bergeson is going to have almost irreparable damage on a full generation of kids. The adult thing to do would be to admit that you and Bergeson are just flat wrong, climb down out of your ivory tower, roll up your sleeves and help us get this trainwreck sorted out.

You already had your education; millions of kids in this state never did and wont for the foreseeable future unless the parents of this state force the change.

Somehow, I doubt the WEA will allow that though.

So, Terry, how much should it take to educate a child? And why hasnt Bergeson been able to do it at almost the highest rate in the nation?

Now my amusement and sadness in a previous post has turned to amazement that Terry Bergeson might actually get on her to reply to parents and educators who are upset. I do not believe it is her although her comments are typical of an educational insider who has spent her career gaining power, both economically and politically, at the expense of our childrens' education.

I must admit to your talents as a politician due to your recent post. It reads right out of a political strategist playbook. First, belittle some of your opponents such as Rep. Anderson. Granted he is wrong most of the time but in this case he happens to be right. Your attack on him was a classic poltical technique.

Second, your condescending attitude toward Mrs. Bachman was the second stage. Patronize the thousands of parents who are fed up with your repeated failures. Make them out to be elitist or alarmist while paying lip service to their desire to their concerns. Granted a good political tool but demeaning to us and to yourself.

Third, confuse the issue by claiming your are only trying to raise standards unlike anyone else. For your information almost every other state is also trying to raise math standards by a certain date. Your inference that OSPI is somehow unique and that this crisis is only due to the admirable task of trying to raise standards is creative as political strategies go but not true.

Fourth, throw out facts and figures and then make creative side issues that have nothing to do with math. Your example of reading vs. writing scores and their applicable gains is nothing more than an attempt to cow people into confusion. If there is a reading problem as you suggest, then why not postpone the reading requirement. The answer is because the overall passage rate of reading and writing is close enough to acceptable losses regardless of how much their overall gain has been. Sorry can't confuse us there. The only reason you want to postpone math is to avoid the political fallout that even the Gov. can't save you from.

Next up you bash a so called think tank because it is conservative. I have no idea whether the Fordham foundation is conservative or not but I will take your word for it. What does that have to do with whether what they are saying is accurate. Nice red herring but this Democrat is not buying. Throw in a good bashing of CA standards but do not tell the public that they threw out Ruth Parker and the whole reform math programs due to their total and complete failure for 8 years. Also, don't let the public know that CA is known as being on the cutting edge of reform. It is laughable that you deride CA as being stodgy and old fashioned in their teaching of math. Who would have thought that a state known for progressive ideas and reforms would become a bastion of conservatism. Good try but your analysis there is also faulty.

Finally, and most surprisingly, you destroy your own most recent arguments regarding OSPI dictating which curriculum to mandate. In your post you state that, "It is a fact that states that control the list of materials that are adopted do not perform as well nationally as states that allow local control." Weren't you the one on television recently saying there are too many different types of curriculum and insinuating that OSPI should be a couple for every District to choose from. That statement flies in the face of your comments at the end of the post. That is why that post is not from Terry Bergeson. That blunder is too large and obvious to have come from her.

If I was on the other side and politicizing this I would point to your financial, social, and professional ties to people involved in the reform math movement. I would point out that when conservatives asked to postpone the WASl you held firm. When the WEA asked to get rid of or postpone the WASL you and the Roundtable emphatically denied that you would lower or postpone it. However, faced with a political nightmare looming suddenly it becomes advisable. I wonder why the WEA and conservatives were wrong but you are right. Hmmmmm

Terry, you have an excellent political strategy. Unfortunately, our students deserve more than that. Instead of attacking parents, many of whom actually have degrees in math or work in fields that use math frequently, you would be better served to reach out to them. I, like you Terry, am a better political strategist than math curriculum assesser. The mathematicians, scientists, computer industry professionals, and concerend parentes can't be all wrong can they? If you keep up the political track even the Gov. and the WEA lapdog leadership will run from you. Most Democrats and Republicans agree on this one Terry. Join them and fix the problem or circle the wagons and entrench. One helps our children. I will let you decide which one that is.

Terry,

Thanks for setting the record straight. All of my commments apply to you also. You are talented in the political arena if I may say so. Unfortunately, I believe you do have a PHD in Education because it is obvious you don't have one in math. Although I have only have masters degrees in political science and educational technology I will admit to not being an expert in math instruction. I have learned a lot from the many math teachers and parents with specialized knowledge. How about you. Thank you for disregarding my two spelling errors and two grammatical mistakes as my hands aren't what they used to be.

My name is Shalimar and I am the president of Where's the Math?. I am reading these comments and find I must respond to Terry's nonsense. Where does one begin?

He/she calls Glenn Anderson's comments on statewide tutoring, rhetoric. Yes, it is a fact the stae tutoring revenue has increased by 340% in this state over the last 10 years. you can find a document from the state on our website at www.wheresthemath.com

The WASL and reformed math were introduced into our state after the passage of HB 1209 in 1993. Not all districts were early adopters of reformed math, but a good many have been using one form or another since the mid 1990's. To even suggest the 80% failure rate of the first math WASL has anything to do with student ability at the time shows Terry is misleading the readers of this post with either ignorance or rhetoric. Remember, for the last 20+ years, our state has always participated in the ITBS; a nationally-normed test. The ITBS sure didn't show 80% failure rate at the time the WASL was introduced; and how about the SAT, was that also as bad? No, of course not. The problem with 80% failure of the first WASL was just that; the WASL.

As for David Klein and the Fordham Report. This really shows you the lack of knowledge Terry has on any of the issues. David Klein did not write the CA math standards; a team of mathematicians from Stanford and Berkeley did. Yes, Fordham is a conservative organization, but David Klein is a self-described socialist and has never been a member of any conservative organization. Chester Finn, the President of Fordham was a Regan appointee to the department of education. So what you have are both sides coming together on the Fordham report to do one thing; seek out the truth.

I won't continue on any longer. Please contact us if you have further questions and want the truth. We never spout rhetoric; we always back up what we say with the facts and proof...something no longer required in math!

My name is Shalimar Backman and I am the president of Where's the Math. I have a few very quick comments to make regarding Terry's erroneous post.

First, the document supporting Glenn Anderson's statement; tutoring has risen in WA by 340% is on our website at www.wheresthemath.com It was prepared by an analyst from the House education committee and is based on data from the Department of Revenue.

Second, Terry seems very alarmed about the 30% drop-out rate in CA. I wonder why he isn't equally as alarmed at the 40% drop-out rate in WA?

Third, I don't have time right now to analyze his data on test scores in CA, but I will tell everyone here, the supporters of reform math are floating around a lot of bad information on test score differences. One has to look at the SES of each state before comparing anything. If Terry really has a PhD, he knows this. But he is using his credentials to divert the truth and try to sound believable and demand respect. We have correct data at Where's the Math and will be happy to share with anyone. Email us at info@wheresthemath.com.

Fourth, The Fordham Foundation. You know the other side is in trouble when they bring partisan politics into the discusssion. Yes, Chester Finn, the president of Fordham is conservative, so what! He was appointed to the US dept. of Education by Ronald Reagan. Terry seems to be upset he was overlooked for the job. Finn has more degrees and experience in education and other diciplines than Terry and all his friends in this state put together.

David Klien on the other hand is not a conservative; he is a self-admitted socialist; the most lefty person I know. Not only that, Klein did not write the CA Standards as Terry says. They were written by a team of mathematicians at Stanford and Berkeley. This is what happens when both sides put politics away and search for the truth...You get the Fordham Report. Once again, our friend Terry is wrong and without facts.

I'm sorry, but I am not wowed by anyone with a PhD in Education. They are used to stretching and bending the truth to fit their agenda. Terry hasn't spoken one word of fact in his diatribe. He is pushing reformed math at all costs which leads me to wonder what's in it for him? Maybe he receives some of the millions of dollars in grant money to push this stuff.

How is this a math question? Math is about concrete, finite, measurable quantities. This is a question about a QUALity ('most difficult' is a subjective term, as is 'best', 'most efficient' and 'fastest', just to name a few favorite terms used on the WASL.) This question asks for an answer based upon evidence that is not presented. Perhaps one of the contestants is a better player at the game being played, which would make every contest against him more difficult for every player that faces him. In the question, every match hasn't been played yet, and we don't know which opponents the players will face, so how can we possibly predict which will be the most difficult match? At least half of the contestants won't be required to face the 'most difficult' opponent. There is a way of solving this question using statistical math, but that is college-level math, which requires the problem-solver to make some assumptions, and using different assumptions produce different results. How is it right to test a kid on something he hasn't been taught yet, and won't be taught until they get to college - IF they get to college!? If this curriculum was developed out of concern that the USA was falling behind the rest of the world in math, then model our math curriculum after the rest of the world's. They teach by rote, repetition, and memorization. If teachers are being taught to teach the kids that there is no 'wrong' answer all year long, then how is it fair to the kids when, on the one day of the year when they take the WASL, they fail because they didn't get the 'right' answer? And finally, if the goal of this new curriculum is to avoid injuring a kid's 'self-esteem', what injury is being done to their self-esteem when they repeatedly fail the WASL? Math may be a language, but this is Greek to me!

For people who haven't been to Wheresthemath.com or research in the internet about the new maths, you should know that new maths educators used bogus study data to sell their new maths idea when it all started. The US department of education has declared that there was NO valid study or data to support the new math. And
Terry, please don't show us any number again. If you are series about numbers, scientific studies and facts, the new maths will not have been here in our state. Or if you are honest, go check out the scientic base for the new maths (there is none) and maybe you will join the other people in voicing against it.

I lay in bed last night trying to figure out why we were trying to predict the outcome of the upcoming contests, when the contest should be over already. Every contestant faces 'every other' contestant, right? Well, isn't that the same as facing only 50 percent of the other contestants? If so, then every contestant should only face three of the other contestants, yet they have all already faced 4 contestants each. So how can there still be 2 matches left to play? Now, I'm not trying to be obtuse. Every time I read the question, that is how I read it, even while I was writing my first post to the BLOG. It wasn't until I was actually typing this post that the light finally went on. I finally figured out that they really meant to say that every contestant will face ""each of"" the other contestants. No wonder! That simple change in grammar influences the way I approach the problem, and changes my answer.

I am so glad the math education in our state is being discussed, hopefully it will lead to some much needed changes. When I watched the Upfront show the other day what frustrated me the most is what seemed like an unwavering, extremist view of the math program from Terry Bergeson. She is not willing to change from the "new math" program and stands behind it 100% even though it is obvious to most people that it is simply not working. How does she not understand that you need to have a good understanding of the basics of math before you can apply them? Every math teacher I have talked to understands this. Every parent I have talked to understands this.

When I talk about the basics I'm not just talking about long division. I'm talking about the basic concepts of all types of math. Whether it is addition, division, algebra, or calculus, there are basic concepts that need to be learned.

I am worried. Last year my kids were in a different school district. Their teachers understood the need for learning the concepts, or basics, before applying them and took it upon themselves to make sure the kids received a balance of both types of instruction. Now we are in a different district where they get very little instruction on the concepts before they jump into the story problems. My kids passed all of their previous WASL's above state levels, but now I am worried. Not so much about them passing the WASL, but I'm really worried about their SAT scores and getting into college. The other day I asked my child's (advanced math) teacher about how much of the computational part of math she teaches. Her answer: While she agrees that the students need more computational math, she is mandated. Students get about 10 minutes of the computational math and the rest is spent on the "new math" book. Yes, I am very worried.

What about a balance?
What about college?
What about SAT's? The WASL is not the only test we need to think about.

Parents, teachers, politicians: This has to change. Let's talk about a balance of instruction.

Terry,
I can't believe that you actually believe that this problem due to poor reading skills as stated in your extremely long paragraph. It sounds like you are trying to push the focus of attention into another subject area. Are you denying that our HS students cannot do math? Kids we hire at our store can't even count money, and they cannot count back change.

2nd point: You asked about PTA. Here is your answer. Whenever PTA members offer to help, ask if there is a problem, or try to get involved in the area of teaching, they are told emphatically that is not an area of their concern, the teachers and admin will handle those problems. PTA members should concern themselves with fundraisers and other issues outside of the actual education of the students. I have personally heard this and parents from other schools have told me the same thing.

3rd point: Math is math. You made this comment. If that is true, then are we dealing with incompetent teachers? Or should we look at the test being given; the WASL? Maybe it is incompetent. I never took the WASL and I am sure that my teachers were as competent as today's teachers and I was an above average math student, so I guess that leaves us with the WASL as the source of the problem. Please tell us all why you are so adamant to use the WASL to test students. Does it truly test students math skills or is it simply logic problems like the sample in the program? If so, maybe that is why our students are failing. The WASL does not actually test math skills. It tests logic and calls it math.

Parents of Washington: Do you that your child is not required to take the WASL? They have the option to choose not to take it. Prior to this rule about 10th graders passing in order to graduate, there was no penalty if you chose to not take the WASL. I am not sure how that works with 10th grade students now though. However, since they are planning to post pone it, I guess it still applies until it is re-instated. The results of the WASL are used to determine if our schools and teachers are doing their jobs in the eyes of the Federal program, "no child left behind". Well, they are obviously not doing their job but apparently no one in a position to change things cares. If they did, they would not have allowed things to continue as they are for 10 years.

If we use a standard grading scale to grade the success of the WASL, (90% is an A) then the WASL has never received an A or a B and only 1 time did it receive a C in reading. This is unacceptable. Tell us why, Terry, you refuse to get rid of the WASL and you will not use another standardized test? How about one of those that homeschoolers are required to use? There are hundreds to choose from. If things continue in our schools, you may be out of a job by the simple fact that families may choose to homeschool or head to the private schools instead, and all of our public schools will be closed.

I would really like an answer to my questions, please.
TS

Lauri,
I find all your comments intriguing. I think anyone reading would recognize your strong voice and convictions. I wonder about all the comparing of districts, states, tests, tests scores and percentages that are thrown out there and debated. It doesn't seem anyone has a clear picture. I hope to see the media reporting the 'facts' soon. Also, it seems so many believe Seattle is Washington. It gets bothersome after a while. We live in a very small town and our school board, teachers, administrators, and pto members do listen and take in account the communities opinions as much as possible. Our school is full of parent volunteers that give the children who are struggling the extra help they need. And we still could use more volunteers. Some may say well aren't they lucky, I would agree, but it's a choice, not luck. I have considered private school and homeschooling, both are excellent options. We still believe in the public school system though. Our children will have to live, work, play and worship with the vast population that have been educated in public schools.
I still stand by my recommendation and encourage all parents/caregivers to be involved with and take responsibility for your children's education. We all know change and growth is hard. Some maturity and respectfulness would go a long way in this 'problem solving' from all sides. Our children are watching and listening to our every act and word. I appreciate your strong opinions and I wish I had the time to read and listen to all the political scandal out there, but I'm too busy reading, gardening, building, cooking, painting, playing music and teaching my kids. (And yes this was my first and last experience with bloging.)I'll stick to voting and volunteering.
Traci

Traci,

I'm not sure if your post is a compliment or not, but yes, I've got strong opinions on this.

We had no idea how sub par the education was here and had a daughter who flew 'under the radar' throughout her entire education.

Had I known how poor her skills were, we would have jumped into the mix far sooner. She was making good grades, and the teachers never once discussed any concerns with her abilities. Where was our red flag? College.

We also had a daughter with such poor basic math skills that she had a hard time finding a degree plan with little to no math in it; so she wasted two years trying to fit herself into a program that she ultimately had to withdraw from because she couldnt go forward until she passed certain math classes.

Again, if we had known what she was facing, we would have gotten her tutors along the way to make sure she could keep going forward. But there were no red flags until she got to college - and then, not until two years into the program. We know this is happening to a lot of kids and they get stalled and drop out.

I fault the public education sector for passing kids who clearly do not have the skills to move forward. How on earth did she pass the WASL all those years? It is perplexing and its wasting everyone's time, patience and money.

And yes, all of us are busy. But we cant be too busy to make sure our everyone's kids have a proper education. We will be dependant on them as we all age - its critical that our country take this seriously and put a stop to the people who are undercutting our future as a nation.

Traci,

On re-reading your post, I see that it is a compliment - thank you :-)

I've gotten beaten up a bit by having strong opinions, but I cant let that stop me from talking to other parents.

And yes, being respectful would be helpful, if we ever saw it from the 'people in charge' at OSPI, we might be able to throw some of it back their way.

As of the past few years, we've seen nothing but contempt for parents who ask questions and cant figure out why more money is necessary to fix this problem. Maybe Gregoire, in all of her infinite wisdom, will be able to tell us?

To busy parents like Traci,

I'll vote too. But, please get out to research and be knowledgeable about issues before the vote. At least, for the very important things like the education of our kids. Voting cannot solve any problems if the voters are not knowledgeable. There will be many sides of opinions and it's time consuming and it is downright frustrating sometimes. But that's the only choice. I may vote for our superintendent next time, only if I did not do the research. She looks like a nice lady.

I just hope more parents will understand the problem better. It is not just a fight of two different ideologies. It is about whether our kids can go to good colleges and getting good jobs and have the ability to do critical thinking.

Wow! This has really drawn a lot of attention. I've read maybe 25% of these entries and I'm getting a pretty solid impression that people don't like the WASL. Is it because it's truly bad, or is it just because it's not a standard we were all held to? Change isn’t necessarily bad, although change for no reason is frustrating.

I'd guess that much of what I will have to say will go against the grain of many people posting here. If you're open-minded, keep reading.

I believe that a quality education is more the responsibility of the learner than the teacher. We must teach our children to learn as well as giving them a desire to learn. Then, the quality of their education will blossom from that desire.

Concerning math: It is logic. Math has little to do with numbers; numbers are just the tools that are used to assist learning, communication, understanding, and carrying out the practice and documentation of logical concepts. Don't misunderstand me here. A solid understanding of a progression of mathematical concepts -- number identification, counting, arithmetic, algebra, geometry, and so forth -- is essential. Without that understanding, the communication of logical, mathematical concepts is not possible.

The question listed at the beginning of this blog is not a high school math problem. It is a logic problem that I would expect to see on a college exam, a professional certification exam, or, perhaps, a question a good teacher would pose to a star student to maintain interest. It is very similar to developing computer programming logic. Although I don't know the answer that the test-makers would give, I can back up my answer with documentation both in terms of the graphic as well as a rudimentary matrix I used to analyze the various possibilities -- which I reworked after changing one assumption (6 should have beaten 4). All three of these support my answer. In case you're wondering, my answer is team #2.

The long version...

Wow! This has really drawn a lot of attention. I've read maybe 25% of these entries and I'm getting a pretty solid impression that people don't like the WASL. Is it because it's truly bad, or is it just because it's not a standard we were all held to? Change isn’t necessarily bad, although change for no reason is frustrating.

I'd guess that much of what I will have to say will go against the grain of many people posting here. If you're open-minded, keep reading.

I am self-educated beyond an AA transfer degree. I worked like a dog studying to pass the Fundamentals of Engineering exam and the Principles of Engineering exam (civil, structural) on my first attempt. I believe that a quality education is more the responsibility of the learner than the teacher. We must teach our children to learn as well as giving them a desire to learn. Then, the quality of their education will blossom from that desire.

Concerning math: It is logic. Math has little to do with numbers; numbers are just the tools that are used to assist learning, communication, understanding, and carrying out the practice and documentation of logical concepts. Don't misunderstand me here. A solid understanding of a progression of mathematical concepts -- number identification, counting, arithmetic, algebra, geometry, and so forth -- is essential. Without that understanding, the communication of logical, mathematical concepts is not possible.

I've seen the results of public education in Washington among high school students. Their arithmetic skills are slow at best. Mid-level math skills have been replaced by a requirement to use high-end calculators in class. Without the ability to apply mid-level math skills, the education progression is broken and higher math skills can't be learned. I've also seen a lack of ability to spell or to use proper grammar or punctuation, so math isn't the only area of education that is degrading.

I believe that the responsibility for a basic education resides in the home. It begins with a basic respect for authority and a commitment to a base-level of performance by both the student and the parents. Until that occurs, all the money in the world will not help the public school system. In fact, it may be necessary to reduce public funding in order to force parents to become more involved in the education of their children.

I don't like the WASL. It is just the next gimmick. It's just one more way to spend public money to elevate the careers of a few people.

The question listed at the beginning of this blog is not a high school math problem. It is a logic problem that I would expect to see on a college exam, a professional certification exam, or, perhaps, a question a good teacher would pose to a star student to maintain interest. It is very similar to developing computer programming logic. Although I don't know the answer that the test-makers would give, I can back up my answer with documentation both in terms of the graphic as well as a rudimentary matrix I used to analyze the various possibilities -- which I reworked after changing one assumption (6 should have beaten 4). All three of these support my answer. In case you're wondering, my answer is team #2.

Doug,

You stated that "math has little to do with numbers" ... that's news to a lot of us.

Sounds like you're either a teacher or part of the bloated administration of some district.

Of course parents are part of the equation, but they are paying one of the highest tax rates in the nation, for sub par educations. It IS in fact, the teacher's job to teach the kids. And while the WEA and the NEA continue to dumb down curriculum and say things such as "math has little to do with numbers" and "we dont teach facts anymore" - parents will be outraged by what we are forced to pay for.

If a doctor only kept 50% of his patients alive after surgery, would you use him?

If an accountant only had 50% correctness on his taxes, would you use him?

If our bus drivers only made it to their destinations 50% of the time, we'd fire them.

See a pattern here? See how numbers do in fact MEAN things?

Francis,
Wouldn't it be great if there was a reliable source the voters could read or watch that gave us clear and correct information about our current pendulum swinging math crisis. I hope the voters do go to the polls with an educated decision.
Doug,
Thank you for being one of the few on this site that gives parents the support if not challenge that they are responsible for their childs education from the begining, the kids have to have the disire and tools to be learners. That they do need to have an understanding of mathematical process.
Lauri,
Of course we all want and expect our tax dollars to be as effective as possible. From some of the struggles your family has endured, we can see where some of your passion stems from. I wonder why it is so important for you to know your daughter has a college degree just for the sake of having one. Shouldn't parents encourage their children to get an education that is gearred towards their chosen career. And hopefully that career is what they are passionate about. Escpecially coming from a parent that is so passionate about their convictions.
I am sorry though, my comments were not intended as a compliment. Many of yours were very mean spirited. I do think (and hope) you could use your time, resources and quick thinking to help us parents trying to raise the next generation of kids going to public school. And somehow gain the mathematical knowledge needed. Maybe you need a new career, something to think about. Good Luck to you and your family.
Traci

Lauri,

Thanks

Doug,

No, I'm not a public school teacher or a member of the bloated education bureaucracy. I'm an engineer, as I stated in my first post. I am also a teacher – I and my wife home school our four children.

I didn't get through 2nd year calculus by worrying about the numbers. The logical concepts are much more important at that level. Perhaps if you will re-read my previous post, you'll be less upset with me and understand that I share many of your views.

I had some good teachers. I know there are a lot of good teachers out there. Many of them are disappointed with the bureaucracy and with the WASL. Teachers present the material – the students have to learn it. Don't put down the teachers when it's the process that's flawed. That's like blaming the assembly line workers for the Ford Pinto. If a child doesn't learn and the teachers get blamed, that encourages an entitlement/victim mentality that is anything but productive.

Again, I must ask if people are upset because the system is faulty or if they just don't want to be held to a higher standard. The passing rate for the portion of the PE exam I took was 42% in April of 2006. Does that mean that the education system failed or that the test holds professional engineers to a higher standard? I've only seen two questions from the WASL. That's hardly a representative sample. I can't say that the WASL is bad just because the passing rate is low.

What I can say is that the "no child left behind" and "don't damage their self esteem" is really hurting the schools and the students. Teachers can't hand out low grades for fear of getting sued by the parents and looked down on by the administration (who thinks that the teachers are responsible for the students' learning). Lazy teachers who don't want to take the time to address issues are a problem, too. They want students to hand in essays that were typed because they don't want to deal with students who can't write. People are graduating from high school without basic reading comprehension, handwriting, spelling, grammar, and arithmetic skills. They know how to use a calculator, a word processor, and a spell checker and rely on television and radio to provide them with information.

So, I'll state it again: Parents must be more involved in their childrens' education and must be willing to hold their children to a reasonable learning performance standard.

Mike Smith,

I agree with you. I had an experience similar to "batterred women's syndrome". When I was in public school, I couldn't see how bad it was. Once I left, I began to see what was really happening: Curriculum is designed not to teach children the basic skills that were taught a century ago. It is designed to manipulate our society. (If the voters of this country continue to hav a capacity for reason, they will continue to be difficult to control.)

Traci,

I'm "mean spirited" for asking people direct questions? Ok. *shrug* Not much I can do about that. And yes, most parents ARE in fact teaching their kids at home - we help with homework every single day, and teach our kids to read. Not really sure what your point was.

I've spent the past 4+ years discussing education with politicians, teachers and mostly parents. It's only the parents who actually seem ready to fix the problem.

Doug,

I will most assuredly hold the teacher's and their union responsible for going along with this WASL debacle for the past ten years and not speaking out about what a waste of their time it is for them, their students and the tax paying parents.

The teachers could definitely make an impact on this because they knew about the problems before us parents did. But to date they stay (mostly) silent, rather than risk the wrath of the union.

And I will state this yet again: Most parents ARE involved with their kids' educations. But no matter what they are taught at home, the public schools fight us tooth and nail to dumb them down at school. Obviously you know this, or you wouldnt be homeschooling your own kids. Correct?

I dont believe any parent so far that has posted on this blog is upset because of the standards being 'too high'.. on the contrary, our standards in this state are laughably low, and inconsistent. The WASL is just pointing out how inconsistent the standards are, as well as the non extistent basics.

As a Special Education teacher at the middle school level I am amazed that my students are required to pass the WASL along with their "normal" peers. We are going to graduate a bunch of test takers and not well rounded citizens. Regarding math....my students are still struggling to learn the basic skills let alone Algebra. I expect a lot out of my students, regardless of their abilities, if they must pass the WASL so be it, I will try to teach them what they need to know. I have tried at least 5 different teaching styles to reach the students and help them know what is expected on the test. This is December though and I will have to spend a lot of time teaching to the test rather than teaching skills these students need in real life. I would also like to comment on the 10th grade student from Federal Way who posted a comment. Could you please learn to capitalize your writing? I realize that people now days don't take the time to correct grammar and spelling on the computer but a little attempt would be great. I have invited Maria Cantwell to my classroom to observe what we face each day and she has yet to acknowledge the invitation.
I have rambled long enough, bottom line to me is yes, test the students but why make it so high stakes?

What math problem? Didn't you hear, Queen christine is going to slove all the education problems. She's going to throw more money at them.
The school borads, politces, and unions, need to get out of the classrooms and let the teachers teach. If the teacher can't teach, then they need to go down the road.
Why are 10th graders taking a test to see if they can pass an 8th grade level, to graduate when they make it to the 12th grade. Why not teach so they can pass a 12th or collage level when they make it to the 12th grade?
I guess it must be that those in control, have no faith in the American student today and the only future they see for them is, Do you want fries with your burger?
I had an aunt that was a teacher in Washington State, until she retired. She use to say she was in it for the students, not the money and she was glad she was retiring. She saw the writting on the wall.

I think the WASA is a wast of time. I deal with alot of kids, and I have heard them say that they want to drop out of scholl and go get a GED. I have a 8 year old daughter in the 3rd grad, and she has to start takeing the WASA and she even has problem with the so called problems. so I can see the teachers wanting the kids to think but if they dont understand the "new" math the system is not heling the kids.and we lose and so do they.

My freshman daughter is now at Georgia Tech where the school has recently shifted from requiring top of the line $300 calculators as a supply to pencil and paper only. Luckily, her Issaquah High AP Calculus teacher taught students to solve problems with and without calculators last year. Concepts must be grounded before technological shortcuts can be used.

The biggest problem with current math dilemna is the idea of picking computational skills versus critical thinking skills when school districts really need to do both. The new programs rely too heavily on estimation and fictional units of measure and writing skills to describe math problems. K-5 students should be doing computational homework every night at home with parents following teacher led instruction and critical thinking instruction in class. I did not like seeing homework sheets coming home that asked only for estimation without actually solving the problem to see if the estimate was correct or not. In some cases, the estimate would need to be wrong, to be right, if you know what I mean.

I am absolutely horrified at some of these postings. I am seeing people complain about the teachers, some of them about the WASL, some of them about the lack of basic math being taught, but what are they doing to help their kids? I have two children of my own and they WILL be taught all of the basic skills for math, reading, writing, science, and all of the other basic courses AT HOME as well as at school. We are all responsible for the teaching of our children not just the teachers. Reading through some of these postings I am inclined to believe that spelling, proper grammar and punctuation ought to be focused on a little more too! Maybe we ought to take a look at ourselves before we go trashing on others for a job that we could be helping with also. I must also give kudos to Doug for his remarks that it begins at home.

Heather

Somebody here wrote following:
"i am a sophmore fromt he fedral way school disrict from thomas jefferson high school and i took the wasl while i wasa freshman i passed everything but the math and my thing is i think the teachers i say that because they dont teach the basics and i can say that because i have never learned my shapes that i never learned which is suppose too be taught in elementary. But also i think the wasl should be changed to somthing that is reasonable for the stuedents to pass and its not because look at the percentages how about they figure out who has bigger percantages and see what they are doing"

This is great example of quality of our education. This student states that she passed all WASL tests except math. It means that she passed grammar test – if you count how many mistakes she made in just few sentences will raise the question: What was the “pass bar” for the test. 50%???

What is going on with our TEST matrix – some tests have very low level, some absurd questions. It’s hard to call this an education.

Doug

You said:
“A solid understanding of a progression of mathematical concepts -- number identification, counting, arithmetic, algebra, geometry, and so forth -- is essential. Without that understanding, the communication of logical, mathematical concepts is not possible.”

My question is: Are we teaching this understanding to kids? - I don’t think so.

We are teaching to kids “It suppose to be such-and-such” but we don’t teach “Why it such-and-such”. We are teaching results asking kids just trust us and accept as is

Good Example:

I am assuming you know what Theorem de Pythagoras is.
I think you will agree that this is one of the basics you are talking.

And how we teach it at schools? We just state what it is and what formula is - that’s all.
We are not teaching how Pythagoras came up with this theorem, what was his thinking, how many ways to solve it, what are there other methods are, etc.

If you ask even straight “A” student to solve it and provide explanations for each step – I don’t think you will receive correct or any answer. Majority of students won’t even know who this man is.

I agree with you that math is more logic than numbers – but before we ask kids for it – we need to REALY TEACH THEM THIS and not PRETEND TEACHING.

that fact that this is a required test is ridiculous. i am a strait A student and have worked my butt of for my entire educational career and i failed the math WASL by two points. this test proves nothing of our capabilities and it is absolutely repulsive!!!!!!

Ooops. I flunked. As i failed to do in HS, i failed to fully read and understand the question. after looking at someone else's answer, i understood the real question, but disagree with their answer. I say the answer is player 2 has the most difficult next 2 matches to play because only player 2 must next play 1 and 7 who have the best records, 3:1, of all players.
As for the larger discussion, I went as far as college differential equations. I have worked as a lawyer 15 years, and as a computer programmer 12 years. Never used calculus. But i found that calculus and trig were good training in "how to think", how to analyze. So i think this question has merit--if a 17 year old can really be taught to slow down and really understand the question. I think the question should be, "Look at each of the next 2 games ahead of each player. Which 2 games will be most difficult? Then identify which player must play them." I might've had a chance at that.

I did this test, I got the answer as player 2 playing against 1, 7 who won 3/4. The easiest one would be 4 playing against 3,5 – but the player him/herself is not a very good one either :)

I am a Software engineer and Pilot. I had to do some math to live (software) and be alive(pilot). If a student can substantiate his/her answer with reasonable assumptions and argument, full score must be awarded. I am from a country where math education is taken very seriously. We have have already failed if we think only one answer is correct. If we think only one answer is correct, we have eliminated lateral thinking minds and would end up with a herd who think alike - Theoretically... That would be very bad.

The WASL sucks EGGS

The wasl is tasty.

The wasl is chicken!

The wasl is like Jasons bunny crap.

I will never forget the wasls ass.

Hi
You are The Best!!!
G'night

You are a crazy freak Cherish!
you need to watch yoor mouth!