i'm sorry you don't understand. it is nothing mysterious as to why we don't accept blood Acts 15:20, 29. i hardly think this is news worthy, but some disgruntled person obviously thought it was. he made an informed decision, and if he does die, he will have a clean conscience. would you rob him of that?

I would just like to have an address in which I can send a card in support of this young mans biblical decision in not having mared his relationship with his creator, Jehovah, and we all need to support that and make his last days happy and remember our creator as Dennis is doing, because he has a hope for a perfect life in a paradise on earth

As a person whose faith is the number one thing in my life, I think Dennis is right. I'm not a Jehovah's Witness, nor do I agree with their theology, but this is his choice. I'm not afraid of death, yet I want to live as long as I can. However, I would NEVER sacrifice my integrity and my dignity simply to prolong my life in this world. If I did that I would be sacrificing far more then my life! However, I know our society is very afraid of death, because it has no faith. I think it's wonderful when some one stands up for what's important, and what they believe, in an age when so few live with such conviction.

Dennis is a very wise young man whom we have grown to love very much over the years. If I truly believed this decision was his own and not coerced, I would feel much more comfortable supporting him. As it stands, however, we will never truly know HOW Dennis feels. Dennis' environment has been "patrolled" constantly since he was hospitalized and no one has been allowed to speak to him in ANY form without a church member present. This leads me to believe they are nervous about him saying the wrong thing. If his aunt is so sure this decision is his... let his friends and others who love him talk with him instead of refusing to let anyone near him or monitoring his every move. Sadly enough, it will take death for this wonderful young man to realize the impact he's made on the hearts of those around him and I can assure you that when I hear a knock on my door next time and find Jehovah's Witnesses trying to "share the good news", I may just welcome them in and try and save them from themselves rather than ducking into the bathroom and pretending I'm not home.

wait. wait I think he should have a transfusion. if it's a matter of life or death and relgion I would choose life. maybe thats becasue I'm not a jehovah, but he has his whole life. why not live it to the fullest and get a blood transfusion so he could live to see highschool graduation or his first highschool dance. if he wants to live honnor his choice don't bring religion into it.

I can see that the Jehovah's Witness congregation is already doing damage control here with their posts to this blog. I really wish that someone would do an expose on this very dangerous CULT. How can a child who has been brainwashed by this group make an adult decision. The Watchtower bible and tract society is one of the largest publishing corporations in the world. And as a result they wield a deadly blow to innocent followers. Just look at their history.

This is such a sad case. You are dead right Elton. Jehovah Witnesses are a VERY dangerous cult. A little lesson on history. In the past 30 years the JW doctrine on blood has changed many times. Every change keeps them one more step away from a class action suit. It wasn't long ago that organ transplants were considered a form of canniblism, yet they are now allowed. How many people died needlessly over that? I wonder if those dead people had a choice, I wonder if they would make the same choice? The blood issue is radically different now than it used to be as well, as they are now allowed blood fractions. And lastly, anyone with a childs education of the bible can understand that the abstinance of blood was for dietary purpose, not life and death situations. If heaven and hell exist, then there is a very special place in hell for the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society.

As the above poster commented, this child is in a situation where he has been brainwashed. Jehovah's witnesses are expected to attend 5 meetings a week where they are repetitively told the same Biblical interpretation of the Bible (JW's interpretation)over and over. They are taught that anyone who questions their docrine are to be removed and all who have been removed even if they are close family are not to be spoken to. The family knows, too, that if they were to allow a blood transfusion they would be shunned by all they considered friends and in a community where your only friends ARE JW's that is a lonely choice. This is not a logical well informed choice made by an adult. It is a choice based on their interpretation of ancient Biblical laws that have nothing to do with our present society. JW's are not even allowed to research ancient theologies unless the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society has written it. No outside information is to be trusted. Is this a cult? Yes it is.

we aren't a cult, i would not be a member of a cult. it is offensive to me that you would think i would be so soft headed that i would follow like a blind sheep while i'm led to the slaughter. again, i'm sorry you don't agree with our beliefs, but don't stoop to saying things that are untrue and hurtful, please.

I wanted to add how sad this case makes the justice system look. The system in North America is pathetic in educating judges on this issue. Of course no one get get to the boy alone, he is surrounded by what is called the HLC (Hospital Liason Commitee) They are the ones who make sure he doesn't change his mind. Kudo's to the reporter who wrote the story. Shame on the judge who helped kill him. That boy's blood is on his head. I hope he remembers this case in a few years when JW's allow blood transfusions. I'm just sick to my stomach over this

I'm so saddened by the fact that a 14 year old boy, who has so many years of life ahead of him to live, has to make a decision to live or die? I do understand that there are those who support and applaud his decision... but I don't think and never will agree with the fact that this is so cut and dry. The JW beliefs have changed so many times over the years. What was wrong 20 years ago, is a consience matter now in so many things. What's to say it won't change again next week or next month? Then it might be too late to do this young man any good. All who say 'Just say no' have in most cases never had to choose if their mother, father, loved one or child, lives or dies. It's life and death people. Bravo for those that think outside the doctrine taught, and choose to LIVE! There are so many of us out here Dennis, who want to see you recover and live your life. This is personal to us, and we're fighting for you even if you don't know us. Good health to you! and unconditional love is out here just waiting too!

I was raised as a Jehovah's Witness and was also one for many years as an adult. I can assure you that Dennis' aunt & congregation are keeping Witnesses only around him 24/7 to make sure he doesn't take a blood transfusion. It is not his decision, in that if he chooses to take one, he would be disfellowshipped and shunned by his family & friends who are Witnesses. How can a child make that decision with all that pressure?? He can't.

Interesting JW's claim that blood is sacred to God as it represents life, and yet they refuse to use it to preserve said sacred life.

Nowhere does the Bible say anything about not taking blood in your veins to preserve your life. It only says not to eat it. JW's use an illustration: "If a dr. told you to abstain from alcohol, not only could you not drink it, you couldn't inject it in your veins..." It isn't the same thing. If a person was starving to death and was given multiple blood transfusions instead of food, he would still die. A transfusion of blood replaces the volume of blood lost (much like replacing an organ) which is needed to sustain life, nothing more. No nourishment is gained by a blood transfusion, as would be the case when eating or drinking the blood, which is forbidden. This illustration often used by the JW's does apply with alcohol and other digestible foods, but not for blood. It simply stays in your system indefinitely.

Also, the scripture quoted above and in the Hebrew scriptures that JW's use all refer specifically to eating or drinking ANIMAL blood. The blood of the animal that had been killed was to be "poured out" rather than eaten or drank. This token act of faith demonstrated to God that the life that had been taken belongs to him. The blood of the animal represents the life of that animal. Humans (according to Biblical belief) do have the right to take animals for food only because the creator allows us to do so. Pouring out the blood first, acknowledges this arrangement. By including modern day blood transfusions in the current application of these verses however (which is not the same as eating or drinking of animal blood), the JW Governing Body is going beyond what is actually written in its application. In addition, the one supplying the blood for a transfusion has not died at all, which was always the case when an animal was bled. A "living" donor instead provides the needed volume of blood-fluid that has been lost for another "living" individual. And in many cases over the years, as a last resort this has been and can still be a life-saving medical act. In other cases by refusing this particular medical treatment because of their stand against blood transfusions, lives have been and will continue to be lost. A girl of only 21 just lost her life a month ago after giving birth to twins and holding them. Why will her twins grow up without a mother? Because the JW Governing Body twists scriptures to make this 'rule' that has to be followed or else you are ousted.

Interesting also that JW's can now 'legally' (according to their faith)take 95% of the components of blood, but cannot take it combined as a whole! Crazy?!!

Organ transplants used to be prohibited, as well as vaccinations. These are both 'legal' now (they call them a "conscience matter") and I and others foresee that blood transfusions will be legal soon in JW land. What a shame that Daniel must lose his life before the "light gets brighter" (as JW's say when they change their doctrines)for the old farts in Brooklyn and they decide it's ok to save your life with blood. I guarantee you all JW's will get transfusions with no problem then.

Mrs P, please. You're not in a cult? I know you can't see it, but this boy is being LED to the slaughter. He will die shortly, and it will be for Judge Rutherford, who imposed the blood rule. He was a drunk moron who spent his days in an alcoholic haze waiting for Armageddon. He bought a house for King David called Beth Sarim, remember that? Nope, even though it's in your precious watchtower, no one talks about it anymore. No matter, the end of the world is just around the corner. It's coming in 1914, no wait, 1918, I mean 1925, no no 1936. Crap, I really meant 1976, 1984, 2000?. My bad, our good old judge said "Millions now living, will never die" That was in 1932. How many of those people are still around? Get your head out of your ass. If you don't wake up, you'll die saying, but it's just around the corner!!!

Mrs. p is 100% right.
Jehovahs witnesses are the only religion that follows evverything from the bible.People who make such hurtful comments about witnesses do not know one bit about the religion. Jehovahs witnesses do not accept blood transfusions because the creator of our very earth Jehovah(psalms 83:18) views blood as sacred.

Stacy - Thank you for all that info. It was so long I almost didn't read it but am glad I did. I am very Catholic, but learning about other religions is interesting. I am also a clinician and have never met this boy. Yes, many religions are "cults" and then there is the religion that drinks their morning urine...yea, saw that on Discovery Channel. Anyway, yes….some religions are crazy, some are not. I personally think the JW group is more than a little odd, (and don’t like the ones I know personally) but really....none of us know for sure. They could be right. Boy, I hope not, but no one can be sure - kind of like evolution. We think, we interpret and we gather "evidence" but we never REALLY 100% know if we evolved from apes. They say there is proof, One skull of “proof” was actually a pig or something. We are human’s guessing about the past and the divine….literally God only knows. As sure as we think we are, we can never be 100% with out a doubt sure until it’s too late. If we look back in history at all the things humans have been wrong about – like the Boston witch hunts, virgin sacrifices – there is real proof that we can never be sure we are right. That is why it is faith. Again, I think the JW group is a little crazy but I know my first communion looks a little ‘cult-like’ to some as well. We are in America and wonderfully we all have choices. If we don’t like his choice we can at least be grateful he has one and remember the blessing of America is we CAN make the choice even if others don’t agree with it or think we are crazy. If the boy dies and there is a God, like I believe there is, then he will go to heaven and why would we want to stop him from that? He’ll be better off than any of us.

Mrs. P doesn't know she's in a cult. I didn't when I was in. It wasn't till I was out of the brainwashing that I could see it clearly.

An illustration as to the ridiculousness of the JW standpoint on blood....If you had a plate with meat, potatoes, vegetables and gravy and you said you cannot eat this meal, but then said you can eat the meat, on its own, you can eat the potatoes, on their own, you can eat the vegetables, on their own...you cant have the gravy though.

This is exactly the stance of the JWs on blood. You cannot have whole blood, but just what can you take in fractions, on their own...?

If you discount the membranes of the red cells, white cells and platelets, they are allowing somewhere between 97 and 98% of the blood. However, the membrane is stroma (protein/enzyme) and as a fraction it too would be permitted. So technically the WTS permits 100% of the blood in fractionated form.

This is ludicrous and people are dying because of these stupid teachings. If you are not going to allow blood, dont allow ANY of it , period. Only the mind-controlled JWs cannot see this. From an ex JW elder, 40 years in it.

Hurtful comments Cody? Get a grip on yourself. You're already in danger of being df'd, just for being on this thread. You know that don't you? If you're unsure, just ask an elder. I won't be baited into taking this thing in a different direction. This is about a boy named Daniel who is going to die. It's typical cult diversion to get the subject matter off base. Daniel will die, there is no doubt. If we are lucky we can soon ban all jw's and their idiotic beliefs.And soon, no one will have to die.

Well, me being raised as a Jehovah's Witness, I agree with his decision. Every Jehovah's Witness in this world has to make his/her decision. Even if he were to live, he would go through his whole life going through blood transfusion after another. So respect his decision because he believes in a paradise earth. Where in Isaiah 33:24 states, "And no resident will say: "I am sick." So in paradise earth there will be no sickness like Dennis' leukemia. We also shun things like lying, adultery, stealing, smoking, and the use of blood. But because we govern our lives by God's Word. Not cause we have to,
but because we want to. Since blood is not always safe its better.

Jessica, It's not your decision...you know that don't you sweetie? It's the 14 old men in Brooklyn who decide what you can do or not in your personal life. It sounds really quaint to say every JW decides for themselves, but that is not true. The Governing Body decides for you and you know it. What they say, goes.

Even if Daniel wanted a transfusion, he knows the consequence of that decision is losing all his friends and family to shunning. That is no 'choice' Jessica. That is not freedom, it's slavery.

Instead of continuing to slam one person's religious beliefs or another's lack of faith, let's consider a more secular view. In the state of Washington a child of 14 can make the decision get an abortion without parent consent or knowledge. Thus, a child of 14 can decide another human's life, but in the case of this young man he cannot decide his own? Before we continue to bash another's conviction, let's sit back and question our own. There is no easy answer to this nor will there be a right answer when secular values clash with faith. Let's quit dehumanizing judges because they make a tough call and people of faith because they believe differently.

um a cult? is that really the right word? I know nothing of the jehovahs relgion. except the fact that they refuse blood transfusions. what i want to know is why. you have a young boy who is going to die in a matter of days, from lukemia and he can't have a blood transfusion?he's not going to live to see highschool if he doesn't get this blood transfusion! religion is important yes. but how far are you willing to to take your belifs if a young person who has their whole life in front of them is going to die. please don't take his life away from him because of what your religion believes. let him live a full life to the best of his abilities.

And Jessica? If JW's shun lying then why is the Governing Body lying to you? About their generation prophecy, about being an NGO of the UN, about the changing blood policy?

They do not shun those things, they shun PEOPLE, Jessica. That is not Christ like. Christ never shunned anyone, not the prostitutes or sinners. :)

One other interesting point: JW's are willing to pay out huge amounts in settlements to protect pedophiles in their organization (did you know that Jessica? Google it...they did it just recently again!!)

They will protect pedophiles and WILL NOT PROTECT A CHILD'S LIFE.

it is entirely understandable that people call it a cult or they dont understand the reason why dennis refused a blood transfusion. i wonder if, the Holy Bible said anything about not taking chemo therapy, or other alternative treatments if ones would be making such a fuss. if the doctors told dennis that chemo therapy would save his life, if he refused it, would there be such a fuss? I doubt it. dennis has passed away faithful to his god, Jehovah, and he was proud to do it, he did not want to die, he was a very vibrant young man, he always had a hug for anyone. anyone who has known him would know that dennis had a real respect for life and for others, how can they say that he has been misguided. anyone who says that they know him, truly does not truly know the dennis that so many of us know, otherwise they would have nothing but the utmost respect and honor for the stand that he has taken. for all the ones to say something about the judge, why dont you take a look at the transcripts, especially from the main doctor who testified on dennis' behalf, who said that he had to honor dennis' wishes, read the transcript, the doctor was not misinformed. we will see you dennis in the new world. your faith and integrity are an inspiration. we love and will truly miss you.

This incredible kid is named Dennis not Daniel.

wow alex you have a very interesting opinion on jehovahs belifs. of course. this is America. freedom of choice, freedom of religion. you're allowed to practice any religion you want. don't bad mouth people's relgions. everyone's entitled to their owna opinion. yes this is a horrible situation. and personally I would have a transfusion no matter what my religion belived in. but this is HIS choice. so if he doesn't want a blood transfusion then he doesn't havd to have one. believe me. I'm just as upset about it as you are. but honnestly. don't take this out on the other people who post their comments. its not helping.

thank you correction, for the correction, dennis deserves to honored, not daniel, although, daniel from the bible certainly desreves our consideration.

As one of Jehovahs Witnesses, all who are commenting on poor boy being so called forced into this decision, instead of being so negative, why don't all just honor and respect his decision. His parents should of thought of all the consequences before putting their lifes pleasures in front of their childs! Isn't that what we are taught to do? Maybe all should take lesson from this! This young man no doubt is clinging to that great promise found in John 5:28&29, where it reads, when they hear his voice, all will come out to a resurrection of life! Don't be bitter, be happy for this Dennis, can't we do that for him?

Why would any of you want this boy to have blood forced on him and make him feel he had sold his relationship with God for a little more time on this horrible earth? No one can even say that blood transfusions would add any time to his life, and if it violated his faith and destroyed his relationship with God, of what benefit would those few extra days or weeks be to him? Just because your conscience allows you to do whatever it takes to save your life, don't condemn someone who feels there is more to our responsibility to our creator than just surviving.

I spent 29 of my 39 years in the jw organization and unfortunately the jw's are not correct on so many things as well as they keep changing their minds on so many things I have to ask you: Are you willing to risk not saving this child and becoming personally bloodguilty yourself? Are you prepared to live with that? At least humor me please and read the rest of my post...

I am a 3rd generation jw and have a broad background on the organization. If fact, technically, I am still a Jehovah's Witness although a very happily inactive and (now) totally disengaged one. I simply haven't disassociated myself out of respect for my aged parents.

Yes, if any are wondering about issues, there are many but time seems to be the main factor here so it is difficult to present all relevant issues.

For starters, I would consider the research already presented regarding abuse issues at: www.silentlambs.org

These 'policies' by the jws do originate with the governing body. In fact, if you care to see what one former member of the governing body says of the organization he ran and you are currently in, his website is located at:
www.commentarypress.com
That is Raymond Franz who helped write the huge 'Aid to Bible Understanding' Book that many older Jehovah's Witnesses will remember.

This is a SERIOUS issue. We are talking about a 14 year old's life here. Please stop. Please think.

Thank you.
Ron

Even though,I strongly believe in God and I believe that, ultimately, God is with Dennis and helping him be peaceful in this struggle, the judge in this case "did not" make a thoughtful decision. The judge had a huge opportunity to stand up for this child and make the right choice and he "did not". If we had to stand by every decision we made at 14 years old or in our teen years or for that matter, our young adult years, I am quite sure our perspective would be different and some choices would be made differently. How can a 14 year old possibly process his rough start in childhood and then the pressures of the strong religious beliefs of the family that took him in? Dennis or any other young person under the best of childhood circumstances is not emotionally mature enough to make this life ending decision. It is heart wretching to know this wonderful boy could be saved by the adult community around him and the decision comes down to one person who somehow feels this 14 year old has the wisdom and religious conviction of an adult.

I am all for religous freedom for adults, a 14 year old is just not an adult.

How sad.

Some info: Yes, the Jehovah's Witnesses' ban on blood is coercive. This has been known to the medical profession for years, it has been reported in medical journals. If this boy or his JW guardian accepted the blood transfusion, they would be disfellowshipped (excommunicated, shunned) on the spot, without appeal. Doctors also know that if they can get the sacrificial victim, er, faithful JW on his or her own, without the Hospital Liaison Committee members or local 'elders' present, a good number of JWs will accept the life-saving blood transfusion... on condition that it be kept confidential, so they don't have to suffer the disciplinary actions of their congregation.

Furthermore, this is in no way an informed decision. Yes, JWs will recite certain bible verses and claim that Jehovah God Himself has forbidden them from accepting a blood transfusion. However, almost all are ignorant of the history of the blood ban within the JW movement (it began during WW II, when giving blood was seen as a patriotic way of supporting the war effort). Most JWs also believe that refusing blood transfusions is a sound medical decision, having been fed lies and distortions about the medical profession in general and blood transfusions in particular for many years. Most JWs view their refusal as a protection... from dying. Most JWs are also of the opinion that there exist valid alternatives to blood, and that doctors simply refuse to give them... because they like to persecute JWs.

The bottom line is that this adolescent boy is going to die. He will never get the chance to research this 'Truth' his aunt indoctrinated him with, he will never truly understand what is at stake, he will never know that he was misled by the Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society about the necessity for and dangers associated with blood transfusions. He will die a sacrificial victim, one more in the long list (thousands) of 'faithful' Jehovah's Witnesses who's number came up in the great Death Lottery.

As pre-med student who also used to be a Jehovahs Witness, my opinion is, while taking religion into consideration TO A REASONABLE DEGREE, there is no sound justification for the unnecessary death of a 14 year old. 'The bible' is in NO way ANY type of textbook of anatomy or physiology, and should UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCES be consulted or referred to in regards to medical advice, even more especially to a situation of a life and death nature. I urge the courts to step in and prevent harm to this young human being.

I have worked in the ER for close to 5 years now, and I know that people who wish to die are termed one thing...suicidal. People who wish to forego medical attention which could prove to be life-saving are in need of psychiatric and legal mediation. This poor young man has obviously been brainwashed into believing that he is being a hero and doing 'the right thing', but anyone familiar with cults and their ideology knows that such thoughts are influenced heavily by the cult group.

Again, I urge someone to step in and prevent any tragedy from occurring. These people attempting to quote 'scripture' and profess 'God's view' are doing nothing other than condone murder. Please do not allow this young human being to become a martyr for the twisted sake of self-righteous members of a cult religion which believes its members are the 'chosen people' and that all non-JWs will eventually perish. There attempts at rationalization are exactly the same as fundamentalist snake-handling cult religions, and should similarly be immediately discredited and disregarded.

I pray that someone decides to step in and save this young man's life.

I hope so too mig. this boy has every right to make a decision for a blood transfusion as anyone. it doesn't matter if the jehovah thinkblood is sacred. I think he should have this transfusion. it's going to save his life. and let him live a few more years.

Who says that he has to have blood at all? There are numerous blood replacement treatments available. Would not one of these work equally as well? Then he could have the treatment, and still have a clean conscience.

These replacements do not contain any blood products at all, and many physicians prefer to use these as they are safer to use. You do not have to worry about blood type or tainted blood.

As a side note, in this country we have certain freedoms, like the freedom to believe what you want. Think about that before you start bashing other peoples beliefs. They are allowed to think what they want, whether you agree or not.

I cling to the fact as Dennis does,if he was to stoop below his bible trained conscious and give in, he would taint his precious relationship with Jehovah, thats where the bloodguilty lies. I am saddened to hear that you have lost your love for the truth..Actually, there is nothing out there, trust me..i've searched all religions in my life. Jehovahs Witnesses are the only true religion that adheres strictly to gods word the bible. So go with that note, don't say the governing body..they adhere only to the bible. But remember, adam and eve made us imperfect, so we all fall short many times, if this is your case...seek Jehovah while he still may be found..

The majority of people here who are 'bashing' the beliefs have been JWs themselves and their lives have been impacted negatively by this Organization. I think they have every right to 'bash' it as they know how dangerous the beliefs of the JWs ultimately are.

My brother who is a heart specialist, a non witness, will not put a blood transfusion through anybody in his family! Isn't that an eyeopener, someone who has over 20 years experience? That should tell on its own.

From another news site, http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/local/341458_leukemia29.html, related from the father,

"He said doctors told him Wednesday evening that the teenager, who has been unconscious since Tuesday, likely has suffered brain damage. He is not likely to regain consciousness, he was told."

There is no fossil evidence of an 'Adam and Eve'. Caleb, you can cling to the thought that you have 'the truth', but that doesn't make it so. I feel so sorry for you and I hope that you never have to go through the same type of situation that poor Dennis has.

I am so thankful, and will always be thankful, for escaping that cult.

I'm sorry that I can't be more tactful, I really want to be, but I have bile in my throat. For all you Jehovah Witnesses who celebrate the death of a child to the ultimate drunk Rutherford. Karma is a real bitch. You'll feel it's wrath soon enough.

Shame on KING 5 for presenting such a biased, one-sided news story and shame on all of YOU for dishonoring Dennis by using this as a means to to slam a particular faith. It must be very blissful in your ignorant worlds.

You have to ask yourself what happens to this young man if he was to choose to save his own life. Having grown up as a JW – he will be treated as dead by all those who claim to love him. Yes. Kick him out; don’t association with him; don’t talk to him. What option is that? Anybody who says that is not the case is not telling the “truth”. At 14 years old – what blood guilt would he have? None.

Yes. I grew up a JW with a father as an elder. No, I was never disfellowshipped or any other such circumstance. In this case… let just call it what it is.. wrong. Blood guilt will be on those who in a position of influence – did nothing. And those who gave council and said they didn’t.

The media is especially quick to point out any Jehovah's Witness that is in a news story. Yet, the religious status of other people in the news is not stated. We never read about the "Catholic Senator" or the "Morman Store Clerk" or the "Presbyterian Janitor". Why is that? There are over 6 Million Jehovah's Witnesses world wide and yet the uninformed or ignorant still feel the need to refer to them as a cult. Every religion has at least one aspect that others (outside of that religion) don't, won't or can't understand. Morman's have their Temple Ceremonies and secret wedding undergarmets, Catholics have their Confessionals and prayer beads. Religion is one of the most personal decisions that anyone can make. No person, group, or government has the right to challenge that decision. Or to try to usurp it based on their own beliefs. Otherwise, some people would want to force birth control on certain religions, force others to eat certain foods, and , again, the list is endless. In essence - it is his choice and he as well as his decision should be respected - not questioned, belittled, or ridiculed.

This is the problem with this country. We have no respect for other people's beliefs and cultures. This is not something you, me and especially the Government has any business being involved in. He and his guardians have a right to practice their beliefs according to the first amendment, whether or not the majority of us would do what he/they are doing or not.

Bud out! This is why the rest of the world HATES us.

This is so sad. I cannot believe a 14 year old boy would willingly die. I am amazed and saddened that the judge favored the cult. I am curious as to why the judge didn't speak to the young man alone in his room without the cult members being present.
As a child growing up in the UK, we had neighbors who were JW's. The father regularly abused his wife and children, and was a complete and utter nut. When their two year old son was injured in a car accident and they refused the transfusion, the courts stepped in to save the child. As adults, all nine of the kids 'escaped' the cult, and severed ties with the family. As a kid at school I remember the kids from this family telling other kids about a huge flood that was going to happen and all of us who were not JW's were going to drown. It made an impact on me as a nine year old. It certainly didn't have the desired effect - rather than wanting to join them, I found them quite frightening and steered clear.

To the person who said we should be happy for Dennis - I am speechless - I think you need help!

As a parent, I am outraged. As a cancer survivor, I am saddened.

JK

Like people forcing others to relinquish their reproductive rights based on the religious beliefs of others?

ok. i've already said this once. the great thing about America is that your titled to your OWN OPINION. this has nothing to do with why the rest of the world hates us. I think we should leave it at that.

I think that this boy needs to be shown the full facts of how this disease will kill him. However, it is his life and no one else, not even his parents or a judge, or a doctor should be able to say how it will go. He should be the only one to have the final verdict.

I have a nutty catholic who is a druggy that is my neighbor across the street, below me i have a verbal abuser and basher a so called christian. Why is everyone bashing the witnesses? There is negative in all religion, look at the big picture. Just because some families are unhappy about the witnesses, that doesn't mean we are crazy! Maybe individually, we need some attitude readjusting, perhaps that is one reason why you are picking on the witnesses!

Faith won't save him. A blood transfusion will. I wish him luck.

The JW's are telling their 'spiritual families' that Dennis passed away this evening around 6.

The fight to protect him from the half truths his "spiritual family" were telling him and us all has failed.

I am sorry so very sorry that this terribly wonderful young man had to die in such an awful way.

The reason the JWs are being bashed is because they just let a 14 year old boy die. The catholic and christian religions do indeed carry their own weight of imperfection, except...they most likely wouldn't let a 14 year old boy die. Many JWs are fanatical, and if you're one and can't admit that, you're simply blinding yourself and you know it.

Peace to Dennis, I hope that he finds happiness on another travel.

I see that the faithful followers of the Cult are in full service to Jehovah here....that is what you refer to isn't it? For those concerned people here that are posting with common sense and logic, unfortunately it is falling on blind eyes. This is how Cults work! For the most part the drones that follow this belief system will never be put directly in a position as Dennis. For us that have lost loved ones or just friends know the pain of useless death. It is interesting that the JW's would immediately point out what they percieve as the radical belief systems of Islam, Buddhism and so forth. But they cannot see the extremities of their own beliefs. The Watchtower Bible and Tract Society has done an excellent job. Bin Ladens efforts pale in comparrison.

He is a child. He is not 18. I do not understand how any parent, judge or guardian can deny this child his life.

Jessica wrote

Where in Isaiah 33:24 states, "And no resident will say: "I am sick." So in paradise earth there will be no sickness like Dennis' leukemia. We also shun things like lying, adultery, stealing, smoking, and the use of blood. But because we govern our lives by God's Word. Not cause we have to,
but because we want to. Since blood is not always safe its better"

I have to say this

First, dont you (JW) belive that the chosen number of people in paradise is already fixed? That no one who is not already chosen can get in? Why then was this young man told that he was "securing his place in paradise?"
You say you (JW) shun lying as you govern yourselves by God's Word. God's WORD became flesh and is living and breathing. God's WORD does not attest to half truths in fact the scriptures state in Revelation that NO LIARS will be allowed in to paradise - why then all the half truths (which by the way is considered a LIE by mere definition) being told and allowed by your JW "SPIRITUAL FAMILY" MEMBERS?

Why is it that this auntie who professed to love Dennis wouldnt accept his friends? Why would she call teen agers who were struggling to deal with his illness his adversaries and told them they were being used by SATAN, why would she not read encouraging words sent to him by loving friends and teachers (reading ONLY JW member's writing)? What gives? IF you truly love you dont lie - if you truly accept your faith - you share willingly you dont condemn

Another issue
This If Dennis was totally at peace with his decision not to have blood and totally at peace with the knowledge that this denial of RED BLOOD CELLS would be his death, WHY THEN WAS HE WAKING IN NIGHT TERRORS scared to death? Something does not match up with the info we saw, we were told, and the knowledge we have from personal experience with patients dying.

Eh. So he died. What's one more death to these people? When does the death of an innocent 14 year-old become so meaningless that Jehovah's Witnesses are complaining that people are 'picking on them'? I presume we were too polite for them to complain of outright 'persecution'.

No, other religions do not get a free pass. When the Catholic Church was caught protecting pedophiles, they were dragged through the courts and before the public, and they have paid out billions in damages. When will the families of the victims of the Jehovah's Witnesses' coercive blood ban get together for a class action suit?

This dangerous cult has killed thousands, many of them children, and they killed again tonight. Ooops. Sorry. Freedom of religion and all, I need to stop picking on them. Yet another JW has remained faithful 'til death, expecting his promised reward in the Utopic 'New System'. The funeral talk will explain it all.

I think this is terrible that any Judge in their right mind would rule for a 14 year old to make this choice of such magnitude. This is a child were talking about NOT an adult. JW are nothing but a cult. This story truly disgusts me. I feel bad for the child who is/was brainwashed into these teachings.

Religious matters aside. If this boy takes the blood, are the doctors 100% positive and can absolutely guarantee this will save his life? Will he be cured for good? No Chemo nothing, just blood & boom cured.
Or will his suffering only last longer?

IF Dennis would have been given blood back when he was admitted, the doctors gave him the numbers of a 90 % cure rate. 9 of 10 patient survival rate is excellent by any medical standards - not perfect as one would really want but as good as one can get when a loved one is facing a terrible illness.
However his RBCs kept falling. His hematicrit was at a 5.4 earlier this week but then it seemed almost too late. This last ditch effort came too late to really do much good for this wonderful young man.

The only thing I'd like to comment on is that in the TV news report, it was stated that Jehovah's Witnesses "deny medical treatment".

That is definitely not the case.

Most Jehovah's Witnesses are very well-informed of their health care choices.

A sad fact is that blood transfusions are sometimes a crutch that otherwise capable surgeons use when they really should be more careful and/or use less invasive, modern bloodless treatment.

Some links so that everyone can be more informed of what can be done without blood in surgery:

http://www.noblood.org/

http://pennhealth.com/health_info/bloodless/

http://www.noblood-miami.com/english/default.asp

http://www.swedish.org/body.cfm?id=133

Charles Taze Russell was no different then Jim Jones or David Karesh, when he founded the Watch Tower and Tract Society in approx. 1906. But since current members of the Jehovah’s Witness are forbidden to read anything other than the propaganda that is force fed to them, they are ignorant of the atrocious history of the very “religion” they are devoted to. There is no need to get angry or frustrated with them, anymore than you should with a child. It is futile to call them a cult, even though the definition of one fits them perfectly. Particularly the divide and conquer method of control. Doesn’t anybody wonder why they don’t celebrate birthdays, Christmas, and many other traditional celebrations (even I agree many are commercial)? So they stand out as different and are misunderstood in society, this proves they are unique and special, aka, “chosen“. Also in the process, they alienate themselves from friends, family, classmates, co-workers, etc. So the only recourse is to find support among themselves. Tidy little plan to keep them controlled, isn’t it? My heart breaks for the children. Viewing their non JW friend with sadness because they will die in Armageddon. Having to sit out while their classmates make Valentine’s cards. I can go on for days! The children! Including Dennis Lindberg who dies for an organization that nets multi-millions of $ a year so their New York leaders can live in luxury, while the masses huddle in their pitiful Kingdom Halls. Only education can stop the insanity, so please...learn what you can about why the JW’s do what they do, that is your best chance to guide one/them back to fine a cohesive life here, and after.

We have seen many differing opinions on this subject tonight. I find it interesting reading the posts by the members of Jehovah Witness. Especially since they are in violation of the rules of the cult that they are members of. What really needs to be done here is to change the laws that prohibit Judges from protecting the innocent ones (Dennis)from extremists such as the Jehovah Witness's. I find it interesting that situations far less than this, if handled by CPS (child protective services)would have resulted in the immediate protection of the child. Here is something else, I see post after post refering to Dennis as a "young man"...are you kidding or just delusional. Dennis was a CHILD. I would hope that King 5 would treat this with far more importance than just another story to sell the evening news. But then again perhaps I am just delustional myself.

This story has upset me greatly this evening. It is clear that Jehovah Witnesses do not have a clear understanding of who God really is. I believe in a compassionate loving God who would not want a responsible adult to endanger the life a child just to satisfy his or her own misguided beliefs, which includes taking scripture out of context and not looking at the bigger picture. In my mind, Dennis' aunt is responsible for his death. And I think the judge bears some responsibility as well. As others here have said, Dennis was a *child*....this was a decision for an adult to make and since his legal guardian was not making a responsible decision, the court should have ruled that he have the blood transfusions.

And to the JW's posting here, since you take one scripture so seriously, you may just want to remember the part in the Bible where Jesus says that it would be better for one to have a milstone thrown around his neck and be thrown to the bottom of the sea than to harm the life of a child!

I have so many emotions right now its hard to focus on what I want to say with out letting the anger and rage overpower the message. I remember the first time I met Dennis; he was dressed in a blue bear costume. Morgan introduced him to me as her "boy friend" (her first one) but his Aunt could not find out. He had that big grin on his face. I can remember how he used to call the house when his Aunt wasn't around so he could talk to Morgan. I remember a young teenager stealing glances when the Aunt was around and waiting for just the right moment when he was out of earshot to say "hello". Morgan remembers too. Although they became just good freinds over the past couple of years that freindship was special. To bad Morgan wasn't allowed to see Dennis one last time before he died.

I wonder who is responsible for this? Is it the Judge? If so we can vote him out next election maybe we can find a 14 year old to run against him. Hey if you are old enough at 14 to make life and death decisions you must be as smart as any judge or doctor. Maybe it is the doctors who are at fault in this.They don't seem to follow their oath anymore. I'm sure the Aunt needs to shoulder a good portion of the blame also, but I'll bet if you ask her she'll tell you it was all Dennis' decision; she was just following his wishes.

The ones who are really to blame are ourselves for allowing this crap to happen. We were so worried about not offending anyone that we allowed Dennis to be used as a martyr to be sacrificed for a screwed up cult!! And if you JW's don't like my attitude to bad!!!

Thank you to Jason Kelley for his post 5:17pm Nov 28th. It really is the essence of the reality for Dennis. You made very a very respectful and dignified post.

For Elton's post Nov 28th 5:56pm Our meetings are free and open to the public try and come for a week's worth of meetings? Bring YOUR bible??

Hebrews 10: 24, 25

A note to Cody regarding your comment that
"Jehovahs witnesses are the only religion that follows evverything from the bible."

Yeah, right...and every Christian-based or pseudo-Christian based religion would say the same thing....please stop deluding yourself that your interpretation of the Bible is the correct one. I am a Christian, yet I certainly don't claim that I interpret everything in the Bible correctly...it is quite arrogant to do so....I think we all will be in for a surprise when we meet God face-to-face and find out that our way of interpreting things wasn't the correct one after all :o!

Alex's post Nov 28th 6:22pm Where are your facts??? Where is Heaven? Above? Yes, it is said in Genesis 1:1,6-8, now where do you find Hell exactly?? I haven't seen that in my bible....

To W. Byrd's post Nov 28, 6:22pm "They are taught that anyone who questions their docrine are to be removed." I don't know where or how you were taught such a thought but I couldn't disagree more. I am one of Jehovah's Witnesses and have been for quite some time...never have I personally learned or been shown that if I question something I am learning then I will be removed from this religion.

Thank you to jrl for his/her post 5:17pm Nov 28th. "In essence - it is his choice and he as well as his decision should be respected - not questioned, belittled, or ridiculed." Even after death.....
Thank you you made a respectful and dignified comment.

For Cody's post Nov 28th 6:56pm
"Jehovahs witnesses are the only religion that follows evverything from the bible.... Jehovahs witnesses do not accept blood transfusions because the creator of our very earth Jehovah(psalms 83:18) views blood as sacred."
Look it up in your bible: Here is a start Genesis 1:1 God creates everything. Then read thru the next few chapters to get a sense of what all is created; how Cain kills Abel; then, the Nephilim come about and do harm. Then the Noah account. Now within this accounting of events after the earth and all bad is destroyed thru the Great Deluge God blesses Noah and his family and says to them: "read Genesis 9:1-6" So they are commanded to not eat flesh with it's soul - its blood. Continue in vs 11-13 plus vs 16.

To Kathy who posted Nov 28th at 7:56pm:

BEAUTIFUL!!!
Thank you!

To Katherine for her post Nov 28th @ 8:16pm: "Why would any of you want this boy to have blood forced on him and make him feel he had sold his relationship with God for a little more time on this horrible earth? No one can even say that blood transfusions would add any time to his life, and if it violated his faith and destroyed his relationship with God, of what benefit would those few extra days or weeks be to him? Just because your conscience allows you to do whatever it takes to save your life, don't condemn someone who feels there is more to our responsibility to our creator than just surviving."

Excellent points! Thank you......for the respect and dignity shown!!

If your going to actually read this: ".....by Ron" posted Nov 28th 8:17pm
Then please add to your reading the Official Website for Jehovah's Witnesses at www.watchtower.org
Might as well 'get the feed directly from the horses mouth'...or Next time on of Jehovah's people knocks on your door feel free to ask any one or more of them to explain their beliefs. Please.... open the door and let's get some dialog going.

Lori, you are completely deluded. Girl, you KNOW it's true that if you question the doctrines of your religion you would be kicked out. Actually if you even doubt in your mind it's considered apostasy by your religion! Ask an elder Lori. The fact that you have 'never personally learned or been shown' it means nothing. That's the way they do it; they reel you in slowly and then you find out those things after you're baptized and trapped. It's a fact; people have been df'd from your religion for sincere questions and doubts. Even for thinking them, or confessing to one person their sincere doubt.

All the JW's posting here think they are being 'persecuted' and it reaffirms their faith that they have 'The Truth' (as if there is such a thing.) They are taught that their persecution proves they have 'The Truth'. They deliberately make these rules (no blood, political neutrality, no holidays, etc.) so that they will be 'persecuted' and then when it happens, the rank and file realize they have 'The Truth'! Great little cult plan, isn't it?

They cannot realize that they are brainwashed, because that's the very essence of brainwashing. They are completely deluded into thinking a 14 year olds' death is something wonderful.

Thank you Gary Curry, for the personal information on Dennis. It confirms what I thought. Raised as a JW, I can relate to poor Dennis having to keep his love for a 'worldly girl' (isn't that a horrible phrase??) secret because the cult members would disapprove. There is no way he'd be allowed to have a girlfriend who was not a JW....too dangerous for him to be led out of the cult! I'm so sorry Morgan wasn't able to see him before he died. (((Morgan))) That shows what a cult they are that they would keep anyone who wasn't in their religion out. Poor Dennis wasn't allowed to see the people he really loved. They had to or Dennis may have chosen to save his life.

Thank you, too, Ellie Mae for telling us the reality of Dennis' thoughts that the JW's didn't want us to know. I'm sure he was having night terrors! He was being forced to choose to DIE! What child wouldn't be freaking out over that?! You said "Why is it that this auntie who professed to love Dennis wouldnt accept his friends? Why would she call teen agers who were struggling to deal with his illness his adversaries and told them they were being used by SATAN, why would she not read encouraging words sent to him by loving friends and teachers (reading ONLY JW member's writing)?" I know you are telling the truth because having grown up JW, that is exactly what happens. Anyone outside the religion, especially if they were trying to help him save his life, would be considered an adversary from Satan. They are messed up, Ellie Mae. I'm so sorry your friend Dennis was involved in this cult. Thank you for sharing with us the truth of the matter.

It's nice to hear from people (non JW) who knew the REAL Dennis; not the JW's who call his decision & death 'beautiful' and spew crap to support their crazy beliefs.

May Dennis rest in peace.

Lori, if you want The Truth, do not go to the official website of the JW's. That just spins their 'truth.' You really should check out the websites Ron mentioned. Maybe you'd learn something about your 'Truth' that you didn't know.

You think you know all there is to know about it, but believe me girl, you don't. I was in it for 33 years and these things are hidden from the rank and file. YOU should do some research. Why don't you? Because they have scared you into not looking. They threaten and scare you that it's just 'apostate lies' and you will be 'drawn away from the Truth.' They don't want you to know because you might leave. Then sales and contributions would go down and they wouldn't have their billions of dollars in property in NYC!

Don't worry Lori, if you decide to research, you will see that the things you read are factual and can be proven. Try it. I dare you.

Gary, thank you so much for your post- it must have been very difficult and upsetting to write.
Much love to you and Morgan- I am so sorry that you are going through such a terrible experience.
It is no fault of yours that Dennis' friends were not allowed to say their final goodbyes.
A religion that won't allow a child to see his friends, while on his death bed?
Cult. Mind controlling cult.

My heart aches for Dennis- the fact he had to hide a perfectly normal and harmless relationship with Morgan in itself shows he must have issues with the restrictions being placed upon him by a controlling cult- rules being placed and enforced by a small group of old men based in America.

Freedom of choice? Joke.
He was a boy being controlled.

Many youths escape from this cult as they get older- thousands of them. He has been denied that choice.

There is a lot of anger, upset, and righteous indignation on this post and that is understandable - a young boy Dennis, has just lost his life.
Perhaps, as a JW this is precisely the type of occasion when the last thing you wish to hear is any condemnation or negativity about your beliefs or faith - it is also a catalyst for a great outpouring of anger from both ex-JW's, non-believers, and other religious factions however......please listen to someone who truly believes that the individuals concerned, especially Dennis, took their stand believing that this was truly what Jehovah wishes of them - and from those individuals standpoint it was very brave
All I can add is, if one really has 'the truth', then nothing in this world can alter that
therefore please take the time to read the book by Raymond Franz - 'Crisis of Conscience'
If after reading it - even with your staunch mindset in place - you can truly go on without any more questions then I personally can say no more to you

Thank you Gary Curry for your heartfelt post. It just reaffirms what those of us who've been there already knew.

Dennis had no choice to live. In his mind there was no choice at all. He either died from his illness not accepting blood, or he would have been considered dead by those closest to him because of his choice to accept a blood transfusion. He would have been shunned by those in the religion, and told he would die the ultimate death at Arrmegedon.

Lori, Listen to what Stacy told you. I was in the religion 28 years myself, and what she says is 'the truth' really.

Just think about what Dennis's decision really involved. Did he really feel he had a choice in this? He wanted to live. And this all happened so quickly he couldn't even really make an informed decision. He didn't get both sides to compare. I know he was sheltered from outside influance, because this is what my father does with the liason commitee to this day, as my father remains in the JW religion.

What a heart wrenching and sad thing.

Another quick thing to think about is when a person begins to study with Jehovahs witnesses, that person is told that they'll most likely receive opposition from their family or friends. This is the first phase of this mind controlling sect. Then when a family member says... 'wait, and think about this religion'... Oh! The Jw's were right and I'm receiving opposition.

It's the same with the blood transfusion. This boys death is glorified in their minds because he died for his faith? What glory is to be found in the death of this young man? He's dead. What did his death accomplish? Nothing... he's dead. We're the Jw's here persecuted for their stand for him? No... They are just receiving messages from those of us who are crying out to them to open their eyes and see 'the real truth'.

Blessings and love...

I am sure poor Dennis secretly hoped the judge would rule against him and save his life. It would have been the only way he could live and not be judged and condemned for it. Poor guy. What a shameful decision of that judge.

I have friends who, as a JW, was secretly glad their baby was given blood so that he would live, even though they felt obligated to deny him blood. Thank goodness for the judge who gave their healthy, intelligent son blood. They are grateful.

I'm sure Dennis & his true friends would have been too.

(((((Dennis' friends)))))

The law doesn't force medical treatment on people. We have the right to control our own bodies. The law also doesn't permit guardians of minor children to withhold life-saving treatment. Those two principles collide when there is evidence that the child has the emotional maturity to weigh in on the decision. I don't believe any 14-year-old has the capacity to understand the gravity of a decision like this - no matter how mature, intellectual and sincere he seems. The standard used by the courts is "best interest of the child." Decisions are made on a case-by-case basis. Here, the judge was probably convinced that the boy couldn't be saved and forcing a transfusion on him would be unnecessarily traumatic based on the depth of his belief that he would be rewarded for refusing the transfusion. The judge might have been right.

But the boy might have lived if he were not subjected to the influence of an authoritarian cult. The reality is that this child did not make and could not have made an informed decision. He was indoctrinated by a belief system that prohibits critical analysis. His "informed decision" began with the premise that God unequivocably prohibits use of blood products and will punish those who violate the prohibition. Dennis was never permitted to question that premise. So the only logical conclusion for him was to refuse the treatment.

The difficulty here is that the U.S. Constitution protects our freedom to practice the religion of our choice. Guardians are allowed to train their children in any religion they choose - no matter how bizarre, unethical, abusive or dangerous. The courts can only step in when the child is in imminent danger of physical harm.

Dennis' death is very sad - a modern tragedy. He was robbed of his life because he didn't have the intellectual capacity to make an informed decision. I wish the judge had understood that and protected him despite the freedom of his aunt to teach him that it is better to die.

Lori, go and tell one of the elders you have been on the internet talking to 'apostates' If you are baptized, you will soon find out you have plenty of attention from them.
And, Lori, you have no doubt accepted whatever answer you have been given if you have received no counsel for asking a question. Just see what happens when you persist with a question that troubles you. If you dont 'leave it to Jehovah' you will find yourself in big trouble. I left so many things with Jehovah, to 'preserve the unity in the congregation' because I didnt want to be a 'murmurer' and yet those issues were huge in my mind...issues that Jehovah could have supplied the answers to, could have put right, but didnt. For the sake of my own integrity I had eventually to search myself and found the Governing Body, my trusted mentors, had lied and covered up so many things, that for the sake of my own sanity, I had to leave, after being a faithful Witness for nearly 40 years, (an elder for some of those) so I DO know what I am talking about Lori.

First of all, I would like to extend sympathies to all those who love Dennis. Regardless of 'religious' beliefs or not. A death of someone near and close is difficult to handle. I am so sorry that his friends didn't get a chance to say farewell. Gary, thank you for your post and please extend sympathies to Morgan.
Unfortunately, it appears that child sacrifice is alive and well within the ranks of the deluded JW's. I am amazed that people like 'cody' actually think that they, and they alone, are the only ones who 'follow the Bible'. If that were so, maybe they should stop and think about who it was, according to the Bible, that gave his blood so that people could live. Think about it. Follow the Bible? I don't think so.
Smoke and mirrors and child sacrifice.
Rest in Peace, Dennis.

Steve, that had to take an enormous toll on your psyche. That you did it and came out stronger is proof that our own personal life maintenance trumps that of any control a deity has (I don't happen to believe in one, but that's irrelevant). Good for you. I hope you continue to find yourself.

I also want to thank Gary for a touching and heartfelt post. I think that the best thing we can do from here on is educate people as to how destructive the JW's really are. Knowing how a cult operates is your best line of defence. Listed below are a few common charactaristics that cults share. You can decide if the JW's fit or not.

Cults are usually personality driven, meaning that someone, or something is actually greater than God. In this case, I would present the governing body as an example. They call themselves God's direct channel, and that he speaks directly through them.

Cults practise isolation. They need followers to be disconected from society, or anywhere critical thinking takes place. Hence the JW mantra, we are no part of this world. Under no circumstances will JW's allow an unbeliever to speak out.

Persecution complex. That has been seen all through this thread. As soon as an opposing view is taken, they cry persecution. They look for persecution as well. Why else would they try so hard to be different?

One last one, but there are many more. Time. A cult needs you for as much time as they can have you. You need indoctrination 24/7. The JW's accomplish this by having 5 meetings every week. 3 of those take preparation time to study for, as you must have the answers memorized verbation from the text. Another get's you up on stage where you are actually graded and marked on your ability to make converts. Then theres the mandatory 10 hours per month of door knocking, plus the constant pressure to pioneer, 60-90 more hours a month. Are they a cult? You decide. Not sure yet? Look up Rick Ross, he's an expert on the subject.

As it also says in Genesis 6:9 "JWs are truly screwed up, they are a cult, beware of these fools and be sure to pepper spray them on the street"

JW are truly a cult

This is why the Government wants to make every decison for us. This is horrible. I'm from the Christian faith and I believe that God gave us gifted doctors with life saving procedures. Oh well, this boy probably had the cure for cancer. Way to go JW's atleast his future wife won't have to suffer through a life of neglect and beatings!

First and foremost I want to applaud Dennis and his family for having moral fiber to stand for their beliefs. In today's world we have far too few people willing to sacrifice for what they believe. That said, I have to say I am appalled that the JW organization is allowed to practice a “religion” that not just condones but encourages murder and suicide. I am a staunch defender of religious freedom in the United States. However the Constitution only guarantee’s these rights so long as they do not infringe on the rights of others. The protection we are guaranteed includes protecting citizens from fraud. Too long have the JW’s been allowed to hide their lies behind the context of religious freedom. A freedom guaranteed by a government and Constitution that they do not believe in. I implore the non-JW friends and family members of Dennis to seek legal action against this organization.

Well, I would hate to think that the jw's are having a peaceful nights sleep tonight. Unfortunately Dennis will never wake up---Dennis has been allowed to die. The closest thing I have ever heard is Dr. Kovorkian who spent time in jail. What this court did is unbelievable in itself.

I must state that I was a Jehovah's Witness and used to think exactly like some of these current witnesses that have posted here.

How self-righteous I used to be and how really unhappy I was as a witness---so glad to not be a part of the cult.

How many Jehovah's Witnesses understand the beginnings and roots of the group you are a part of? Not a bunch I care to venture.

Why does the organization pick and choose which 'rules' to follow?
Did you know wedding rings are of pagan origin? If I were a jw, I would be ashamed to be tied to pagan roots like that...

The list is endless and the typical publisher has no idea what the 'real' truth is.

Does it ever make a Jehovah's Witness wonder why there are literally hundreds of similiar religions and groups all claiming to be the only 'truth'? Contrary to what you may think, other religious groups also think they have the one and only 'truth'. Why God would pick that specific group out of 300 or 600 other ones; especially in light of the various hidden scandals currently surrounding it is a question I don't have the answer to.

Also, if indeed the jw's are the 'truth'; would God condone having members of his organization be abusing sexually children as the www.silentlambs.org website shows? I would hope not! Yet, this is an issue known all the way up to the so-called 'faithful slave' and they are faithfully letting this continue. I would at least take time to do some research. Not to worry---I used to do as a good jw would and rely on the default answer of "new light" coming to be and the other seemingly fool-proof jw comeback is: "Well, the Devil sure must agree with your backtalk". Those blanket statements just don't hold water! They are a catch-all to avoid facing the 'real' issues here!

Here is an article from a newspaper I wanted to post:
------------------------------------------------------
Transfusion row rocks Jehovah's Witnesses

Stephen Bates, religious affairs correspondent, "Guardian"

Thursday June 15, 2000

Jehovah's Witnesses are braced for a flood of litigation following a vote by church elders in New York which may allow members to accept blood transfusions in critical medical circumstances providing they repent afterwards.

The revelation that transfusions might now be acceptable, apparently decided by the church's world governing body by a vote of eight to four at a secret meeting last month, caused anguish and astonishment to adherents that one of the central tenets of the faith - and the cause of death for thousands of members over the years - was being abandoned.

The decision means that members who accept transfusions may not be automatically expelled and shunned, so long as they repent and seek spiritual guidance.

The church fears that disaffected members whose relatives have died after refusing blood may now seek damages.

The witnesses' British headquarters at Watch Tower House in north London described the decision, which will be conveyed to members at Kingdom halls across the country by letter as "a minor procedural change".

Geoffrey Unwin, an author and former Jehovah's Witness specialising in writing about cults, who broke the story in Britain, said: "Witnesses are in a state of self denial at the moment. They will be shocked that the elders who are supposed to get their messages direct from God should have voted for a change like this.

"Countless thousands whose relatives have been allowed to die needlessly will be angered that this could now be changed by a bunch of old men hiding in a room in New York after supposedly talking to God. They must be terrified of litigation."

Jehovah's Witnesses believe that as life is a gift from God, blood should not be intermingled, taking their text from Acts chapter 15, verse 20, which instructs the faithful to abstain from things "polluted by contact with idols, from fornication, from anything that has been strangled and from blood."

The religion's 130,000 British adherents - among 6m worldwide - are not supposed to accept blood transfusions even if refusal results in their death.

In January Beverley Matthews, 33, of Stockport, Greater Manchester, died after refusing a blood transfusion and last week a teenager, Brent Bond, of Nottingham, accepted a transfusion only seconds before lapsing into unconsciousness after losing five pints of blood in a machete attack. The church said yesterday that he was not a Jehovah's Witness because he had not been baptised in the faith, although his mother who is a member, tried to prevent the operation.

Jehovah's Witnesses are well known for the strictness of their observance. Members do not give presents at Christmas or birthdays, exchange greetings with non-believers or allow their children to take part in games or plays at school. Even use of the internet is frowned upon.

The church insisted yesterday that the New York decision was clarification of existing rules and a simplification of the process of excommunication, though that came as a surprise to some witnesses.

Paul Gillies, the church's spokesman said: "If someone accepts a transfusion in a moment of weakness and then regrets it afterwards we can offer assistance, just as if they had committed adultery. But if they are no longer living by the rules they have excluded themselves.

"Nowadays the movement towards bloodless health care means we have had members who have had open heart surgery and liver transplants without using blood."

Guardian Unlimited © Guardian Newspapers Limited 2002

------------------------------------------------------
Nothing can be done now for Dennis as this organization permitted his death unnecessarily which is nothing less than a tragedy.

For the future and so this type of thing won't continue, please at the minimum try to have an open mind. I do not blame the people actually in the jw organization and I was one for the first 29 years of my life. I even think sometimes the governing body themselves have become a victim to continuing on a cause 'at any expense' including in this case the death of a 14 year old.

If people here do nothing else, I encourage you to visit www.commentarypress.com or even amazon.com to find Mr. Ray Franz' book "Crisis of Conscience" and "In Search of Christian Freedom."

Given that he is the only person who actually knows what makes the governing body come up with some of these decisions (since he and his uncle Fred Franz were part of the governing body for the longest time), I think it is worth considering.

Thanks for listening.

Ron

If we all believe in God and Heaven then why wouldn't we let him die in peace? Choice or no choice if God takes him then he is better off in heaven. Isn't that we all believe, unless we're atheist? I am NOT a JW....I think they are more cult-like than religion but who cares why he did it. My grandfather refused treatment with renal cancer...so do many others. Refusing treatment isn't crazy...it is a choice. I agree the reason behind this choice is ...a little weird, but come on - he refused treatment and is now in heaven. I do have a question though....Do the JW's believe in God but just interpret his words...in an odd fashion? If they do is God not forgiving? Would he not forgive an error of blood? No one knows if they are right are wrong (I think they are wrong) but they can’t be sure they are right….until they die.

Another thing - We are in America and we all have a choice. Don't try to outlaw the JW's because next they'll outlaw the Catholic's or Baptists. We can’t outlaw the minority of any group because we never know when we’ll be the minority. The reason the Quakers came over is for religious freedom don't get the law involved because tomorrow they'll make something you want (religion, abortion, gun right, etc) illegal. Accept the weird ones in the world because we are all weird to someone else. Respect the freedom we all have, even if they are crazy, they have a right to freedom of choice

The judge made the right choice by not interfering because as American's we don't want a judge to tell us how to live, or die. In China they could only have 1 kid... if we let the judge tell the kid he had to live then the judge can also tell us how many kids to have, who to marry, and more. Freedom doesn't mean we agree, it means we have a choice...that means we even have the CHOICE to be stupid, if we so desire.

Me,

Are you insane? It's a choice if you are an ADULT. Your grandfather was obviously old enough to make that choice.

A CHILD who is brainwashed by a cult should not have his life taken away by a judge.

I GUAR-AN-DAMN-TEE you Dennis secretly hoped the judge would rule against him & force a transfusion so he could live.

Guarantee it.

He was 14, legally a child, and therefore should not have been allowed to make that decision. Even if his God does not allow blood tansfusions, then I'm sure he would be forgiven if made to by the courts. He should have been allowed to reach adulthood before being allowed to make life decisions. It's such a waste.

Finally the courts got one right. I'm proud of this young man for standing up for his beliefs and not letting someone else decide his treatment for him.

Interesting how society thinks. It's ok for someone to go off to war, put their lives on the line for someone else, and they are considered a hero for making the ultimate sacrifice. Do the same thing for God and suddenly you are a nut in a cult. I wonder which is the more brainwashed ...

It's ok for someone to go off to war if they are an ADULT, not a CHILD..figure it out!!

In response to Alex..you need some clarifications..we are not mandated to preach, pioneering is all done willingly..so to your hearts desire. Also, we have our weekly meetings to fortify us because for every step forward we take in society, daily everyday trials takes us 2 steps back. On sunday we have a public talk followed by the Watchtower study, Tuesdays we have our ministry school, teaching us all we need to know about preaching, followed by the service meeting..that encourages us about the worldwide activity. And thursdays we have our book study arrangement, right now we are covering the book of Revelation. I know nothing we say will help in your mind set already, but hopefully one day you will understand it all, too bad your independant thinking made you go astray. I have not found any other religion that has soundness based on the bible, as far as the holidays...look it up in the encyclopedias..the originations will surprise you..it did me! Now we get together more then anything, it doesn't have to be only 2 times a year, birthday and christmas!

Cal..what you just stated are all of the tenets of a cult..congratulations, you are in one. Finally one of you has admitted it.

JW's 'escape' YOUR CULT!

Lori you keep saying in your post "this horrible earth?"

If in your religion you believe it's so horrible here on earth NOW I know why you refuse medical treatment to end your time here! Thank for the insight on the JW's faith.

I work with several members of the JW's. I am constantly bombarded with their views. The sad ending to this episode confirms it for me. CULT!

The right..you need to look into your bible, this horrible earth here is depicted as "society" mankind in general, just like Noahs Day,
Jason, you can call us a cult.. that won't change all the facts.

As an ex-JW (and so much more enlightened for it!) I would like to direct this comments to Dennis' family and friends: I am sorry to hear of Dennis' passing. I truly am. I know that whether you're a JW or not, if you were a friend, you'll no doubt miss him.

Judges, Dennis' family members, Dennis' friends, JWs and non-JWs: PLEASE TAKE NOTE - let us all remember that Dennis didn't necessarily have to die. We (as a society) should have rallied round and done the right thing by him, and indeed, by all other children, because that is what he was - a child. Let's make sure that we all take the necessary steps so that this doesn't happen again.

Personally, I am all for freedom of choice - but NOT when you are a CHILD! Would Dennis' Aunt have let him drive a car? Probably not. Why? Because he was a child. Would he have been allowed to drink alcohol? No. Why? Because he was a child. Would he have been allowed to fight for his country? No. Why? Besides the JWs not allowing that, it was also because he was a child. Would he have been allowed to end his life regardless of the fact that he may have been saved? YES!! WHY?????
Dennis - RIP.

Cal, Yes you are mandated to preach and you know it. Quit lying to the worldly people. Stop preaching and see what happens, Cal. Records are kept on your activity. Your 'Publisher Record Card' follows you to every congregation you go to so they know how "spiritual" you are based on how many hours you put it.

You are TOLD meetings are to fortify you. They are, in reality, to continue the brainwashing. There's no other reason to coop up the same people 3 times a week for several hours repeating the same crap year after year. It's to keep you 'in' and brainwashed into thinking this is what's best for you. Read 1984 Cal.

Cal, you are the one who needs to look up the origins of your religion. Have you seen the pics of Bethel Christmas? Do you know who stopped Christmas and why? Do you know who stopped blood transfusions & why? No, you don't. You know what they tell you now. You don't know the truth about what happened back then because they won't allow you to look it up and you obey them like a sheep led to the slaughter.

Hey all you exJW's: notice how Cal used the word "encourage" .... gag! Remember that word being used ALL THE TIME?? It means "this is what you have to do" put in a nicer sounding way..."we're 'encouraging' you". "Fortify", too....fortify you for what? The persecution the religion loves to bring on itself so that they can then 'prove' to the rank and file (that's you, Cal) that you have 'The Truth.'

LOL...studying the Revelation Book AGAIN, huh, Cal? And you can't have an old one, right? Or else you have to make all the li'l changes in it that the new one has because 'the light has gotten brighter', right? (ie; the governing body changed their minds on a few things that weren't working out ... their timeline is rapidly breaking down!)

Hope you can keep up with the 'light' Cal. And be sure to be OBEDIENT to the old farts above all else! Or you might 'die at armaggedon.'

Child abuse in its most clever, cunning form.

Satan is alive and well in the JW organization. I am very familiar with their beliefs, and yes folks, it is indeed Satan's organization. The Bible is very clear about false prophets and of people who will come "in my name" but that what they say will not come true. JW's continuously prophesi the 'end of times' and have failed many times (1914,1975 etc). They deny the Sacrament, and closed the gates to heaven to all but 'the chosen', and they excite members with the gift of 'paradise earth' (the same gift Satan tempted Christ with). The leaders will not stand up for what the preach by making everything they publish and print as being 'taught directly by ministering angels' and not by any man, so you will never know truely WHO is giving such bad advice. They even believe they were once infiltrated by Satan himself and that is why the false prophesy, so who is in charge now? You'll never know because they hide under the 'idology' veil to protect the true authors.

Their woeful misinterpretation of the Bible has now cost the life of an innocent.

Yes, they are a cult based on the practice of "Ideological Totalism" (look it up). They also ingrain in the members that the more they are persecuted for their beliefs, the more 'right' they are. Stupid logic. Every JW meeting starts with a story of persecution. What is healthy about this? They prey on weak, ignorant people for converts by offering fellowship.

All things are gifts from God, including technology and science, and the medicine that could have saved this boy. Man has dominion of all things on Earth, including the knowledge to save lives.

It's sad that the boy died. Yet, I believe he died with great pride. It's way better than living with shame is his mind. The most important thing for a 14-year-old with severe medical condition is his faith. I appreciate the judge to make such decision.

Nice belief system, let a CHILD die..I can call you a cult because you are one.. cult defined = A religion or religious sect generally considered to be extremist, with its followers often living in an unconventional manner under the guidance of an authoritarian, charismatic leader or leaders.

Everyone seems to be ignoring why God said donot eat blood.
When the Israelites were slaves in Egypt, God told Moses in his last plague on Egypt, to tell Pharoah that if he did not let His people go,he would kill the firat born of them all. In order for the Israelites to be saved they were told to slaughter a perfect lamb, and sprinkle the blood of it over their door posts. Then the avenging angels would pass over thier home and the would be saved. That is what really happened and the first born of the Egyptians all died.
That was a foreshadowing of the blood of the lamb Jesus Christ that would be the salvation of all mankind if they accepted the sacrifice of his blood as their salvation. So now you can see why God Jehovah, views blood as so sacred. Using blood for the saving of our temorary life now, shows a lack of faith in Jehovahs promise and is a trampeling on the Ransom sacrifice of Christ's Blood. Those are the facts and God bless Dennis for his courage in abstaining from blood transfusions. Shame on all of you who wanted him to reject the value of Christs blood, and especially all of you who know these facts and ignor them in this blog.

Any religion that has to keep such close watch and control over its members is definately a house built on sand.

Excellent example of faith in a young person.

Nice to see someone taking a stand for something they feel is right. So many 14 year olds out there making truly damaging choices for themselves every day. Where are all the blogs and comments about them belonging to the cult of popular opinion?

I'm glad one had the fortitude to stand up to the people around him and say 'this is my life, my choice, and I will not let you interfere with my conscience.'

Jonathan..unfortunately he did not have a choice in the matter. He was being hovered over by JWs the whole time. Free will lost out in this one . You make a statement about truly damaging choices, can't think of one more damaging than this one, although it ultimately wasn't his choice now was it?

No I am not insane…..Rather I see this for what it is. A LEGAL question not a religion question. We can’t stop the JW’s just like we couldn’t stop the Hale Bop Comet people who drank kool-aid and wore Nike’s to die. Freedom of religion is a fundamental American right. We won’t get rid of it any time soon. Remember, I am not a JW and don’t know much about them …other than to not answer the door and a boy in school smelled of BO when I was a kid because he couldn’t wear deodorant. Odd rules.

If the courts can force you to give your child “whatever” treatment then why can't they force you to keep your unborn child alive? Abortion is a choice (which I think has valid uses at times) but it is no different...your child, YOUR choice. This kid didn't really make his own choice - is parents made it for him because is thier kid. Ask any parent how they feel if a judge say’s they have to – let’s just say for example - keep their kids from getting fat or maybe not watch too much TV because both of those things are bad for kids. No one likes the law telling them what is best for their kid. I agree the judge should have spk to the boy alone but if we fall back on the legal system all the time then we suddenly have no rights at all. Abortion is the same thing - YOUR kid, YOUR choice. I know many people who should have been forced to have an abortion. Awful parents and the kid pays the price, but it is THEIR kid and their choice. Even though the boy is a kid his parents have the choice to raise him however they see fit, with in the confines of the law. The only issue is the confines of the law become very tight and soon we are not raising out own children - the law is. Think about this...how many people on this post were spanked (not abused just spanked) now you can hardly spank your kids. The law becomes a very close squeeze after a while. What about people who don't give their kids vitamins? Or get them vaccinated? Or people who let their kids ride with out a helmet (like we all did when we were kids)? At what point is YOUR child the responsibility of the community? It is a very fine line but a slippery slope to have the law involved too much. That is why I agree with the judge. He can set a precedent otherwise. Again, I am Catholic not JW. I so think they are a bit crazy but the religion isn't the issue. It is the LAW that is the issue. Question is --- Where does the law end and begin?

Ah, death in the name of religion. Will it ever stop???
How unfortunate that cults can basically kill their members in the name of God.

IT APPEARS THAT THE MORAL OF THIS STORY IS THAT IT IS SAFER FOR CHILDREN TO BE REARED BY DRUG ADDICTS THAN JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES.

Suggested solution? If all of us reading this blog who have experienced the destructive forces of the JW’s would take one under their wing, we might have a chance to stop the insanity. The few I know I find to be people with holes in their lives that need to be filled. That means in addition to opening the door of education and information about the atrocities of their organization, be ready to have an alternative suggestion on how they might spend their days and time in a constructive and nurturing environment, complete with the fellowship they need and seek. Where is that exactly? All I know is that in my 48 years of life, I have seen examples of positive, happy, stable, loving people come from all walks of life. With and without organized religion. I can also tell you if your faith has you looking at any group of people shaking your head with disdain, it doesn’t “work”. But if you can open your arms to the diversity in this world with compassion, and understanding , and be a good example of a human being yourself, your energy will be a draw, and help shape the future. God is within us all. It shouldn’t matter what “book” or doctrine you cling to, it matters if what you do with it “works“. Sound over simplistic? Perhaps. ( :

Depending on the type of Leukemia, the boy's "whole life" that was ahead of him wasn't going to be very long, even with transfusions. Because the disease was rapid in it's onset and progression, his diagnosis would be of the acute variety.

The 70% survival rate is for 5 years, as a general rule he was probably looking at an optimistic 40-45% long term survival rate. Those might be good odds for Vegas, but there was a greater chance that he wouldn't make 25 years of age. Surviving and living are two very separate things.

Saying he had his whole life ahead of him is rather short-sighted in that his whole life wouldn't be very long, normal or pleasant given his condition. He should be old enough to have a say in his choice of treatment; whether anyone here understands or agrees with his choices is irrelevant; they were his and his to make.

I believe the context of blood in Acts is the consuming the blood of animals. Dennis got a disease of this world, God educated many people and they became doctors with a way to cure. What if Dennis had more of God's work to fullfill and God gave him the path of seeing a doctor. Dennis made the decision that he felt was right and I hope it works out for him. We will never know it all till we meet God on that wonderful day.

This DEATH is a SCANDAL. The District Attorney needs to investigate why Children's Hospital waited until blood transfusions would have not helped anyway, instead of requesting an emergency hearing as soon as the transfusions were obviously necessary. Start with the so-called "Ethicist" at the Hospital.

Summaries of over 225 similiar Jehovah's Witness Court Cases are found at:

BLOOD TRANSFUSIONS AND OTHER LEGAL ISSUES AFFECTING CHILDREN OF JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES

HTTP://JWDIVORCES.BRAVEHOST.COM

Reviewing the similar cases at that website reveals that typically only Hospitals that agree with the Jehovah's Witnesses position would delay seeking court intervention in such an obvious situation.

Jerry - A scandal? Really, don't be silly. You honestly think all the clinicians at Children's got together and all agreed this child should die? Children's does a lot of good in this area, don't bash them. They respect the parent rights as much as possible. I agree with Me, kind of. The child belongs to the parents and I don't want someone taking my kid becaue they don't think I know what is best for her. Respect Childrens for the work they do. They help all those who want it.

To me this is not about the religion. It's about a child at that age that has no other rights cause we know they are children. They can't drive, they can't vote, they can't make any legal decisions on there own. But here we say this child can make a choice to live or die. Kids don't know there is not rebooting, or reseting the game and starting life over again. At that age they don't have all the answers yet. They don't even know the questions. The law that gives young teens that right to make that choice needs to be changed and we all need to call olympia and make them know we want it changed. Gregiour change this law now!

Jehovah's Witnesses elders will investigate and disfellowship any Jehovah Witness who takes a blood transfusion,to say the issue is a 'personal conscience matter' is subterfuge to keep the Watchtower out of lawsuits.

Many Jehovah's Witnesses men,women and children die every year worldwide due to blood transfusion ban.Rank & file Jehovah's Witness are indoctrinated to be scared to death of blood.

FYI
1) JW's DO USE many parts aka 'fractions' aka components of blood,so if it's 'sacred' to God why the hypocritical contradiction flip-flop?

2) They USE blood collections that are donated by Red cross and others but don't donate back,more hypocrisy.

3) The Watchtower promotes and praises bloodless elective surgeries,this is a great advancement indeed.BUT it's no good to me if I am bleeding to death from a car crash and lose half my blood volume and need EMERGENCY blood transfusion.

Know this,the reason that JW refuse blood is because of their spin on the 3000 year old Biblical old testament,modern medicine will eventually make blood donations and transfusions a thing of the past.When this technology happens it won't vindicate the Jehovah's Witnesses and all the deaths that have occured so far.
The Watchtower's rules against blood transfusions will eventually be abolished (very gradually to reduce wrongful death lawsuit liability) even now most of the blood 'components' are allowed.
In 20 years there will be artificial blood and the Red Cross will go on with other noble deeds.

None of these changes will absolve the Watchtower leaders or vindicate their twisted doctrines
Are there dangers from blood?There are over 500 aspirin deaths in USA yearly.

Jehovah's witness's are a cult and are not Christians. This also applies to Mormon's. I belong to the Lutheran Church Missouri Synod and we have had many bible class studies on these cults.

Just wait another year or so and ask what the JW's stand on blood transfusions is then. The same as it was two years ago? The same as it was 25 years ago? And, please Witnesses, spare us all the response of "Jehovah's light getting brighter..." How small is your god if he has to change the rules of the game? By the way: Nobody who is in a cult believes that they are, in fact, in one (Mrs.P).

Wow, what a long blog...

Most of it seems to be going off the path,I guess we couldalldebate the issue for along tie.
Dowe want 14 year olddeciding their life course? The law feels we do. The judge heard the case, and he agreed. End of story. If you do not like the results, change the laws. Do you want abortion to be legal? If so you have to allow people to do what they want with their life and body even if you do not agree with it.

There are lots other cases out there involving various forms of medical treatment in which a minor's right to choose has been tested. I'd wager a lot of the posters in here would be all for a teen's right to choose to end a life in the womb while talking out of the other side of their mouth on this issue. Whatever best suits the needs of making a divisive argument at the time, I suppose.

So many people these days feel they have the right to judge as they lurk the message boards posting their opinions ... as if they were sitting by this young man's bed or were even anywhere near the courtroom as the matter was heard.

It must be frustrating to realize that not everyone caves in to the court of popular opinion on every cause for which you fight. That's really too bad.

I have noticed several posts here from people who are ex-JWs. I would be extremely interested to know exactly how you managed to escape this cult and what made you see the light. Perhaps it may even help the JWs posting here to open their minds just a crack as to what is *really* going on behind their so-called religion.

What difference does it make now? He's dead and has become yet another victim of "interpretation".

By the way, Jehova Witnesses DO NOT follow the bible completely...because last I heard, the Sabbath day is Saturday, and they go to church on Sunday...

Another senseless death due to the stupidity of religion. When will this end? If god is so great why do people get ill, die, have mentally and physically deformed children? That's some kind of loving god to worship.

Bill said, "This also applies to Mormon's. I belong to the Lutheran Church Missouri Synod and we have had many bible class studies on these cults."

So you are taught to hate? Sounds like you are in a cult too...why don't you just spend your time creatively by reading and living Bible teachings. If you are spending time in your Church studying cults then maybe there is some deflecting going on to keep you from seeing another truth. JW's do the same thing, spend their time destructing other beliefs.

Come on people!! This was a 14 year old child who was led down a dark path and ALLOWED to die. Enough with the "he made this decision all on his own and we need to respect it". What cop out bullshit. In normal everyday life we do not allow 14 year olds to make life and death decisions. But when someone throws a bible in the mix we all run for cover.
JWs used him as their own personal martyr for their stupid back woods cause and they should be ashamed.

I have to wonder... why a 14 year old would make such a critical decision? Perhaps he did indeed have all the facts and decided what he wanted to do - or not do - and what the cost of that decision might be.

And for those of you reading all of the vitriol spewed by a few disgruntled ex-JW's, ask yourself this: Would you want to be associated with people who are loving, care for not only each other but for others in the community, who live by their beliefs, OR would you like to be associated with people like those posting their hatred here? Step back and think about that. JW's are not appreciated for their good works, rather they are persecuted by those who HATE. I guess that's to be expected. (Matthew 10:16-23)

Good works? Caring People? Living by the Bible? Come on...give us a break. I have had 4 business dealings with JW's and they were incompetent thieves and not to mention, alcoholics. They were very dishonest. They don't have to deal fairly with 'apostates'

And has ANY JW seen proof of their good works? Like so-called hurricane and tsunami relief? There are no official records of any such help with any relief organization. Oh wait..you'll say 'cause we do it without praise'. Bull, I have JW relatives in an area hit and they did not stay to help...the RAN in a group to another state and stayed away until all was safe. JW money goes to printing presses and nothing else.

I wonder where the pro-live people are - is it suddenly ok because religion ok's this? Why can't a terminally ill person decide to end his or her suffering?

ALEX said, "Jehovahs witnesses are the only religion that follows evverything from the bible." Many Jehovah's Witnesses suffer this same delusion, but consider the evidence:

In 1931 vaccinations were forbidden by The WATCHTOWER -- "Vaccination is a direct violation of the everlasting covenant that God made with Noah after the flood." - The Golden Age, January 4, 1931, page 293.

In 1952 The WATCHTOWER changed it's mind, and vaccinations were OK for JWs -- "The matter of vaccination is one for the individual that has to face it to decide for himself....And our Society cannot afford to be drawn into the affair legally or take the responsibility for the way the case turns out..." After consideration of the matter, it does not appear to us to be in violation of the everlasting covenant made with Noah, as set down in Genesis 9:4, nor contrary to God's related commandment at Leviticus 17:10-14. Most certainly it cannot reasonably or Scripturally be argued and proved that, by being vaccinated, the inoculated person is either eating or drinking blood and consuming it as food or receiving a blood transfusion." - The Watchtower, December 15, 1952, page 764

Did the bible change between 1931 and 1952? Or was it just the teachings of men that changed?

In 1967 organ transplants were forbidden by The WATCHTOWER:
"• Is there any Scriptural objection to donating one’s body for use in medical research or to accepting organs for transplant from such a source?—W. L., U.S.A.

A number of issues are involved in this matter, including the propriety of organ transplants and autopsies. ...

First, it would be well to have in mind that organ transplant operations, ... were not the custom thousands of years ago, so we cannot expect to find legislation in the Bible on transplanting human organs. Yet, this does not mean that we have no indication of God’s view of such matters.

...Humans were allowed by God to eat animal flesh and to sustain their human lives by taking the lives of animals, though they were not permitted to eat blood. Did this include eating human flesh, sustaining one’s life by means of the body or part of the body of another human, alive or dead? No! That would be cannibalism, a practice abhorrent to all civilized people.

...When there is a diseased or defective organ, the usual way health is restored is by taking in nutrients. The body uses the food eaten to repair or heal the organ, gradually replacing the cells. When men of science conclude that this normal process will no longer work and they suggest removing the organ and replacing it directly with an organ from another human, this is simply a shortcut. Those who submit to such operations are thus living off the flesh of another human. That is cannibalistic... it is evident that men practicing medicine have not been beyond using treatments that amount to cannibalism if such have been thought justified.

...What should be done, though, when a Christian is asked to provide an organ for use in another person or to allow the body part of a deceased loved one to be so used? We might ask, If a Christian decided personally that he would not sustain his own life with the flesh of another imperfect human, could he conscientiously allow part of his flesh to be used in that way to sustain someone else?

...When it comes to deciding what to do with one’s own body or with the body of a deceased loved one, for which a Christian is responsible, the apostle Paul’s words at Romans 12:1 should not be overlooked: “I entreat you by the compassions of God, brothers, to present your bodies a sacrifice living, holy, acceptable to God, a sacred service with your power of reason.” Baptized Christians have dedicated their lives, bodies included, to do the will of Jehovah their Creator. In view of this, can such a person donate his body or part of it for unrestricted use by doctors or others? Does a human have a God-given right to dedicate his body organs to scientific experimentation? Is it proper for him to allow such to be done with the body of a loved one? These are questions worthy of serious consideration.

Not to be overlooked is the use to which a dead body might be put. Would a Christian who, while living, refused to give his blood to be used as a transfusion for some other person, allow his body to be turned over to a group or to a person and possibly at that time have the blood removed and used for transfusion, as has been done with some cadavers? (See, for example, Awake! of October 22, 1962, page 30.) A person might feel that he could stipulate that his body not be used in that way; but if many persons in authority refuse to abide by a Christian’s wishes about blood when he is alive, what reason is there to believe they will show more respect for his wishes after his death? Would they use his organs in cannibalistic medical experiments? ..." - The WATCHTOWER, November 15, 1967 "Questions from Readers"

In 1980 The WATCHTOWER changed its mind:
"• Should congregation action be taken if a baptized Christian accepts a human organ transplant, such as of a cornea or a kidney?

...Some Christians might feel that taking into their bodies any tissue or body part from another human is cannibalistic.

...Other sincere Christians today may feel that the Bible does not definitely rule out medical transplants of human organs.

...For this reason, each individual faced with making a decision on this matter should carefully and prayerfully weigh matters and then decide conscientiously what he or she could or could not do before God. It is a matter for personal decision. (Gal. 6:5) The congregation judicial committee would not take disciplinary action if someone accepted an organ transplant. - The WATCHTOWER, March 15, 1980, "Questions from Readers"

Did the bible change between 1967 and 1980? Or was it just the teachings of men that changed?

It was in 1945 that The WATCHTOWER first likened blood transfusions to the "eating" of blood, quoting as "authoritative" medical writings from the 17th century.

In 1961, The WATCHTOWER's position on blood transfusions was hard and absolute:

“If you have reason to believe that a certain product contains blood or a blood fraction…if the label says that certain tablets contain hemoglobin…this is from blood...a Christian knows, without asking, that he should avoid such a preparation. - The Watchtower 11/01/1961, p. 669

Is it wrong to sustain life by administering a transfusion of blood or plasma or red cells or others of the component parts of the blood? Yes!...the prohibition includes "any blood at all." - Blood, Medicine and the Law of God, 1961, pages 13, 14

In the June 15, 2004 issue of The WATCHTOWER, a diagram was printed shoing that FRACTIONS from red blood cells, FRACTION from white blood cells, FRACTIONS from platelets and FRACTIONS from blood plasma were now considered NOT unacceptable," but "Christian to decide."

In 2006, The WATCHTOWER's new position on blood is stated this way:

"...when it comes to fractions of any of the primary components, each Christian, after careful and prayerful meditation, must conscientiously decide for himself." -- The WATCHTOWER, June 15, 2000, pages 29-31

Once again we have to ask, "Did the bible change between 1961 and 2004? Or was it just the teachings of men that changed?

Did The WATCHTOWER's Hospital Liason Committee (HLC) inform young Dennis that could conscientiously choose to ACCEPT a transfusion of red blood cell fractions?

Another thought - although a JW *might* make a conscientious decision to accept blood fractions, JWs are forbidden to DONATE blood, so the life-giving fractions any JW accepts must come from "worldly" people.

Anon, you said: Would you want to be associated with people who are loving, care for not only each other but for others in the community, who live by their beliefs,

What the hell are you talking about?? I was raised a Jehovah's Witness, so I know all about them. Loving people don't coerce a 14 year old under threat of disfellowshipping to make a decision to die. JW's do not care about others in the community. They do NO community charity. They consider their 'Field Service' (ie; knocking on doors) to be the only valuable community service. They use up the blood supply by taking fractions and do not donate back. They shun their own children if they 'sin' (smoke a cigarette, have sex, get drunk) or leave their religion. How is that loving and caring?

It's not. It's hateful, judgemental and pious.

Here we go with the persecution line again....they kill someone and then cry 'persecution' when people call them on it!!

You should open your eyes Anon.

as I read this blog, I just can't help but to feel anger. The statements made by the JW's a feeble attempt to justify this young Boy's death. The blood in question is now in their hands. I would not be able to live with myself in this world nor their "paradise world" I feel our justice system has let a boy die at the same hands that would banish him for the decision to live. I hope all JW's rot in their PARIDISE HELL

I find it interesting how you describe his belief in the Jehovah's Witnesses faith. His faith is entirely based on God's word, the bible. That is why he has the strength to be obedient to God's laws on blood. He is part of the only worldwide brotherhood truly united in love. That is why there is no paid clergy and no
participation in war. This is a remarkable young man and his faith is a tremendous encouragement to any and all who love their creator and want to be obedient to him. So few in this world today even know his requirements. Blood could have temporarily prolonged his suffering, it's no wonder he held to his convictions and kept his integrity. People die from this disease regardless of taking blood.
Come on, people, this is just your forum to express your personal hatred for a religion you have nothing but disdain for. his everlasting life in Paradise is guaranteed. Such a shame so many pass judgemnet on JW's but Jesus made it clear his true followers would be hated just as he was. the same exact ignorance was behind his execution. God's word sets the standards for true Christians. Dennis had a close relationship with his heavenly father and proudly proved to Satan that he would not bend to this pressure but kept his integrity. He didn't try to hold on to a few years in this world because his faith is he will have the "real" life in paradise for all eternity.

Lets put this simple people.

THERE IS NO LORD HAHAHAHA NO GOD HAHAHAHAHA. RELIGION IS A CULT!!! We were created by apes, the earth was created by the BIG BANG theory. Come on you religious nuts, give in the evidence points to it. We came from monkeys and when we die...well we just die plain and simple and become yard mulch.

JW just become the worse fertilizer around.

We need to abolish all religion in this country, burn all the churches, synagogues, mosques and do away with religion.

I made a mistake - the comment "Jehovahs witnesses are the only religion that follows evverything from the bible" was made by CODY, not ALEX.

Sorry, ALEX.

Unbelievable! To the judge that allowed this: I grew up as a Jehovah's Witness. As a 14 year old in this cult, YES CULT, you are brainwashed to the point that you fear God and "the elders" so much you are willing to do anything to live "in paradise on earth". A 14 year old for one, isn't mature enough to make this decision. And, second, the only way you'd understand this so called "religion" is if you were involved. The are sneaky and keep things as private as possible so the "world" won't know just how badly they brainwash their followers. As a child I grew up being forced to stay away from all "worldly" people, including my own family. I'm sure that's how this 14 year old boy was being raised. To believe he'd never make it to paradise and that he could not associate with his "worldly" relatives. SHAME ON ALL OF YOU! Judge, I hope you feel good about your choice to allow this young boy to die at the hands of the JW's. They should be charged with manslaughter for what they've done. It's no better than Jim Jones convincing his followers to kill themselves and their children. That's exactly what they've done here. Brainwashed his aunt and this young boy into believing he'd never be forgiven by God if he chose to live. This is sickening! These "elders" rule their congregations by instilling so much fear in them they'll do anything. I witnessed abuse at almost every meeting I attended as a child and young adult. They went as far as telling women in the congregation if they were ever abused by their husbands they should not turn to the police, but to the elders of the congregation to deal with it. These people just settled a lawsuit out of court to pay 9 people sexually abused as children and it was covered up by the Watchtower Society. Look it up on MSNBC.com. They are scary people and everyone involved in the killing of this boy should be ashamed of themselves and charged in a court of law for what they've done!

Haha, you'd better be. I almost fell of my chair as I was reading it. No harm done.

mrs. p did you actually read Acts 15:20,29?? Might really want to read it and not just quote what you have been told. St. Paul mentions nothing about blood transfusions, only that Gentiles who turn to God are not required to follow Jewish laws except for no fornication and eating animals that were strangled and/or sacrificed to idols... It's a sad situation for Dennis who was suffering and in pain while being advised by people whose doctrine is constantly chaining....God does not change, will never change and will always be. I pray that Dennis is finally at peace with God without the guilt of adults leading him astray. God’s mercy is with Dennis.

I cannot believe someone would let a 14 year old boy die because of something that holds NO proof at all. The guardian should be put in jail. If my 14 year old child came down with pneumonia, and I refused to get him medical care due to my "beliefs" and he DIED, I am pretty sure Child Services would come lock me up for child abuse in a heartbeat. Can someone explain to me why you refuse blood transfusions? And please....stop knocking on my door.

A cult is a religion that says anything other than Jesus is God. JWs don't believe this, therefore they are in a cult. John 1 is very clear. In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word WAS GOD! Then a few verses down.....then the Word became flesh and dwelt among us. This is Jesus. The JW's have conventiently changed the words to "In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was "A" god. Wrong, wrong, wrong. This diminishes Jesus' to someone other than God.

This is insane that this boy, and that is what he is, a boy, not a man, was allowed to make such a grave decision that ended his life. If the J.W. are so big on the body being sacred, how about taking care of his body by giving him blood transfusions. I don't think a 14 year old who is obviously influenced by the cult he is in is qualified to choose death. My son has leukemia and he has had the blood transfusions that saved his life during chemo. What a difference it makes. Before the transfusions he was laying there unable to get around, white and exhausted because he didn't have enough blood to carry oxygen to his body. After, he had pink cheeks, and was able to walk around. He is doing really well now, with an excellent prognosis. That is what this poor child gave up in the name of religion. It is so sad, it breaks my heart.

This forum is what 21st Century intolerance looks like.

If it is intolerance to protest the death of a boy who didn't need to die, who could have had a long life ahead of him, if he'd only gotten the life saving treatment he needed, then call me intolerant, I don't think that kind of intolerance is bad at all.

For those who don't understand Acts 15:28,29 and the conviction not to receive blood into the body;check the dictionary. To abstain is to hold oneself back voluntarily from something regarded as improper or unhealthy. When the scriptures were written man hadn't figured out how to put blood straight into the blood stream, they simply drank it for health benefits. God said blood is sacred and the life is in the blood and it was to be abstained from. If a doctor told you that alcohol would kill you so you can't drink it anymore would you then put it straight into your bloodstream in the form of a transfusion and expect it not to be bad for you? If the sacred word of God says to abstain from something it means in all ways. Blood transfusions are not acceptable to a person who strives to follow God's word to the letter. No more than murder or stealing or lying or fornication would be.

Jonathan,
Give me a break! If you grew up in the hell I and thousands of others like me grew up in with the JW's you'd be a little less tolerant yourself. This is abuse, plain and simple. No one should be tolerant of abuse or the killing of a child. They are experts at isolation and brainwashing. This is what they did to this young boy. They isolated him while he was in the hospital so no one "worldly" could speak any sense into the situation. They brainwashed this boy, plain and simple. It's what they do. PLEASE, someone, an investigative reporter, someone in law enforcement, a judge, a politician, someone needs to look into what they are doing to these children. Myself and many many others who escaped this cult will do anything to help with an official investigation into this. We cannot let them get away with the killing of this child. Someone needs to stand up for him. I beckon all of you to write to the Judge who made this decision on the Skagit County Superior Court, the doctors who supported a 14 year old child's brainwashed choice to die, the JWs themselves with your outrage. Someone needs to do something about this!

Well, even the devil can quote scripture to his own end. That's in the Bible too. Abstaining from blood could easily be interpreted as to be abstain from shedding blood as in killing, which is basically what the beliefs of the Jehovah's Witnesses did to this child. I would not let a wrong interpretation of scripture stop me from saving my child's life.

I hardly would expect an answer from AP, but your outrageous claims make me stand up for what is right. I personnaly can't be responsible for people falling prey to your load of crap, so I feel the need to respond.

Firstly, thank you for all the laughs myself and others had at your expense when you claimed the organization as "the only worldwide brotherhood united in love" Can you give examples of such love? How about your poor brothers in Malawi thousands of whom were tortured and beaten to death for their faith. Brave people I'm sure, they stood up for their faith and would not purchase a $25 card to show support for the government. Right now I'm sure that you feel those brothers and sisters were doing god's will. But did you know that at the same time, JW's in Mexico were allowed by the society to bribe government officials to get a similar card? Both were sanctioned by the society, but why? It sounds like typical JW love to me. I don't know, maybe you meant the love you share and the measures you all take to protect child abusers. Don't act so shocked, I'm sure you've heard of the silent lambs website. Maybe you are even aware of how they are protected by the org. To those that don't know, as a JW you can be expelled on the rumour of having a cigarette, but there must be at least 2 witnesses to child abuse. If there isn't, he goes scott free. And no, you're not allowed to go to the Police either. Can't bring reproach on Jehovah's name can we?

Someday, someone will get all the facts straight, and expose them for what they are. I can't wait for that day.

There is an elephant in the room here that few people, certainly not the JWs, are seeing.

This boy DID NOT choose to die. He was forced. The JW blood ban is coercive, in several ways.

First, he was told that he would be shunned, expelled, probably kicked out of his home, if he ever disobeyed the strict JW laws. The facts are that about 70% of children raised as JWs (in the USA) DO leave the cult, but most do not do so until they are 16-18, because not only do they have to create a whole new social and support network, they also have to find a place to live. This boy died at an age where no one can be certain that he truly believed in JW dogma, that his decision was not in any way influenced by fear of finding himself thrown out on the street (with leukemia, no less).

Second: He never got a chance to hear opposing points of view. He was essentially guarded 24/7 by JW officials who prevented him from hearing any dissenting voices, and who almost certainly did not allow him to hear an honest appraisal of his medical condition and a realistic prognosis. They almost certainly told him that doctors are talking out their ass when they say he 'needed' blood, that his chances were in fact better without the blood transfusion. If this was his choice, if he was old enough to make up his own mind, then why deny him the information he needed to make a mature decision? Why did he need to be guarded, why were his contacts, letters, phone calls vetted by JW officials?

And yes, withholding necessary medical treatment, voluntarily, is much the same as withholding necessary food and water. It's criminal neglect, it's murder...

JWs walk a very fine line by continually trying to cast doubt on the efficacy of blood transfusions as a treatment, which allows them to make the claim that no one could have known with 100% certainty that the boy would die without a blood transfusion. They routinely accuse doctors of negligence for not administering blood substitutes (even though there are none that would have saved this boy's life). They routinely misrepresent scientific research, medical reports, misuse statistics to justify their position; not because they are convinced that blood is abhorrent to God (after all, they do accept 97% of whole blood, in component form), but because they are terrified of multi-million dollar lawsuits. They are afraid that if they begin to allow blood transfusions, the families of their thousands of victims will sue them and take every penny they have fleeced from their flock.

This boy was not a willing martyr. He was a human sacrifice, killed on the altar of greed.

I know exactly what needs to be done about this ... butt out of these poor peoples' lives! Everyone loves to feel that they know what's best for everyone else, so they work their butts off online trying to convince others to see things their way ... you'd be pleased as punch to force your views on these people, while at the same time complaining about them knocking on your door. Fortunately, the United States government and its Supreme Court have classically been in favor of letting people worship as they choose, keeping its nose out of matters of faith. Wouldn't it be a nice place to live if everyone else could do the same?

In response to "No God"....I guess we all know where you are going! Hope it's not too warm there for ya.
Back to the real reason of this debate...a young child has now left this earth...maybe not the way you or I would have wanted. Although I do not believe in the JW religion, it was his way and his choice!!

Ok this is really silly....the JW's I mean! They sit here and recite scriptures from the bible but clearly do don't have any comprehension at all. Acts 15:20, 29...as one JW said to reference to says nothing about using life saving blood in your veins. It is actually talking about ingesting(eating) it. And the other JW that wants us to reference to Psalm 83:18 is clearly grasping for straws being that that scripture says nothing about blood at all, only that the Lord is the highest. Ok so I am lost as to where they can justify a boy dying! It makes no sense. I have relatives who are JW's and they are all wacko. They are a cult and they do brain wash their young and anyone else that they "convert". I love my uncle and aunt but I have never agreed. They can never give a normal sraight forward answer when I have valid questions about what they believe. Every answer they give is wishy washy and round about....just like the ones that have posted here today! Why do you you JW's change your minds every so often? If it is in the bible as you all put it then wouldn't it never change? Read your bibles JW's! And get a clue already!

Alcohol, gambling, religion...when you become obsessed with anything, this stuff happens. Just follow the 10 Commandments folks, don't get obsessed.

Nice damage control by the JW's. Way to represent.

I am agnostic. I have friends who are of all different kinds of faiths and beliefs. We don't argue about the differences in our faiths, we respect each other BECAUSE of our different opinions and beliefs. Hearing the story about this very ill boy broke all of our hearts. Not because of his religion or his decision, but because he was very sick and still made a very adult decision. If this decision was made by a person who was in their 80's and had a living will, would this be such a big issue?

Wow Lisa - I agree ... silliness times ten. Why are you still posting exactly?

Maybe it would be better for you to work on enacting some legislation, since it seems to be such a passion of yours.

Go on now - get busy changing the constitution.

Since I was close to Dennis I feel the need to chime in and give my point of view. First of all the dictionary definition of ‘cult’; A system of religious worship. Obsessive and faddish devotion to a principle or person. A group of persons sharing such devotion: sect. So yes, JW’s you are a cult unless you want to re-write the dictionary also.

First question; who is right? What if Dennis gets to the end of his journey and finds out he died senselessly because of your beliefs? What proof do you have that your religion is correct? This goes for all cults and religions.

I went to church for 17years. This included Sunday school, church, Monday night Awana, Wednesday night youth group, summer church camp and all the little trips the youth group went on. I found when I became an adult and my mind had developed enough to question and wonder that how do I know this is right? What proof do I have god exists? Faith? Faith is not proof enough. I questioned this because I found that people of religion are some of the most hypocritical people on the planet! After all I learned and was taught it was a slap in the face. This is where I learned not to trust anybody all because of religion.

I have also had first hand experiences with the cult of the Jehovah’s as well as others (I grew up during the Moonie era). They are one of the most hypocritical and most blind religions I have ever run into.

I spoke with Dennis when he was diagnosed but did not know he was a Witness. Everything happened so fast and now he is gone. I wish I had known so I could have told him my story in hopes that he would have given himself a chance to live and grow up to make his decision of faith with an adult and independent mind. He was robbed by his religion and they have forced me to live with the regret of not giving him his chance.

The family and their cult should also be ashamed of calling us non JW’s Satan’s helpers which was exactly what they said. See, hypocrites just like I told you. Is this the respectful way their religion works? Give respect, get respect. For shame, for shame.

Great post Johnathan, you must be all growed up. Lisa, don't worry about the inane chatter coming from this childs mouth. He doesn't have the capacity to reason, or even present an argument. Sadly, this is all he has. You'll make a great elder someday Johnny boy

Jonathan would you let your child die???

Lisa, someone like Jonathan probably would let their own child die. It would probably be another matter when it came to himself though, I bet he'd find some reason that it was ok for him to get what he needed to survive. So many "religious" people are so hypocritical. Would Jesus let a child die if the means were there to save him? I highly doubt it.

Seems to me that everyone in here will have a child that dies. Whether that child dies at such a sad young age, or old in their bed, everyone here will one day see death.

I just choose to retain the right to make my own judgments as to the care I receive when that finally happens, as it appears this mature young man did.

On top of such horrendous tragedy, please stop trying to take that right away from me and my children. Thank you.

Jonathan, answer the question. Would you let your child die?

Ok Jonathan. I can see you are taking this as a personal attack and not like it is my own opinion as well. Are you a JW?

And this is what it's like to try and debate a JW. Ask a question, and you either get nothing in response, or an answer that is too confusing to understand. If you take the time to read through this thread in it's entirety, you will see questions asked that have gone unanswered. You will see people point out factual critical evidence about the JW's and nothing in response other than "stop persecuting me" Jw's can't answer a critical question no matter what. I wonder if they can actually even see the questions

Few if any humans are 'mature' at 14 years old.
The brain and emotions are still developing most certainly at that time not to mention not being able to stand up to so called 'older or wiser' ones.
I know of no 14 year old myself who is capable of grasping such an enormous decision when being influenced by the 'enforced rule book' of the jw organization.

The jws always say 12-14 year olds are capable of baptism and dedication to the jw way of life. I beg to differ.

Often young emotions or pressure gives way and these children are baptised and have enforced rules then the rest of their lives.

Too bad they don't wait until they are truly mature to decide even if such an age may be at bare minimum 21 although I think Jesus Christ being baptised at 29 had the better idea.

Ron

We should be commending a young man who makes a stand for his faith and lets that guide his conscience. There are so many teenages out there getting involved in drugs and sex at an even younger age and have life long consequences. If there were more teenagers that believed so strongly in their faith and listened to a strong conscience like Dennis, there would be alot less problems in the schools. Secondly, the doctor's, nor anyone discussing this matter could guarantee that he would survive this horrific illness even after the transfussion, and yet many of you would still ask him to go against his conscience and his faith. Let's not forget there is a possibility that he could contact some other blood born disease from this transfussion. No one can deny now that Jehovah's Witnesses practice what they preach!

Alex-You are so right! They won't answer a question and make sense at all. So many times have I asked my aunt and uncle questions and there is not any logic or rhyme or reason in their answer. And in their non-sense they would let their own child (relative) die. Again....no sense.

I just would like to say that BLOOD is sacred and that this should give science a chance to accomodate beliefs in their research for alternative methods of treatment.This is not the only issue that might bring contorvesry look at a good example which might make many christians think,whether really marijuana(i am sure everyone knows its a narcotic) can have medicinal value i am sure not all religions will allow their or encourage faithfulls to smoke weed inorder to cure a certain ailment.In short this is a call for researchers to come up with alternative treatment options since everone in one way or another will have a different stand on different issues related to health which touch on their religious beliefs.

I think it is insane that this boy had to die this way. People cannot go about using religon as an excuse to justify their actions. If we let children make all of their own decisions based upon their "religon", can you imagine the damage in which society would suffer? Religon is one thing that carries NO proof, so to use that in a court is ridiculous. A boy just died because of what a book says...a book in which no one knows for sure who wrote it, and no one knows how many times it has been altered. If he was not raised around this cult, I think everyone (not including JW's) can agree that he would have wanted to live, wanted to experience what it's like to drive, graduate, start a career, and maybe have a family of his own. It is so sad that these "people" have deprived him of that and took his life.
oh...and JW's....please stop knocking on my door.

Ron, you have have no idea what you are talking about. Jehovah's Witnesses do not give a defined age of baptism. That is why we do not do infant baptism. Baptism is a personal decision that is made on the individual person. I have known some from age 11-92. It is taken very seriosly. You should get your facts straight before you speak. Dennis held fast to his conscience during a difficult time. His doctor's and the judge supported his choice. If you force something into another person's body that is a violation toward's them. Would you want something forced in your body against your will? Isn't that saying that rape is OK!

Reinhardt-Well it just so happens that Marijuana does not CURE anything...it just takes the edge off whatever is ailing you. So that really can't be used as a valid example of saving a life. But you are right. If science can come up with an alternate life saving measure that would take the place of blood it would be better for the JW's...until they decide that it magically appeared in the bible in some coded message that it is now forbidden!

Many of you need to look up the definition of a cult. Jehovah's Witness are not a cult. If any take time to research alot of the rights you have. You will see that Jehovah's Witnesses fought up to the Supreme Court to guarantee the rights that each of you have. The same right that Dennis had to make a PERSONAL decision with his doctors.

I was brought up in a Catholic family and work around several Witnesses. I don't always agree with them, but they've always been helpful and courteous in my case. I have to say that after reading through some of this, there's little doubt where the emotionalism lies versus the people who just want to be left alone to worship as they please. I may never be a JW myself, but I just have to respect any religion that can produce a teenager willing to decide for himself the type of medical treatment he ultimately receives while coping with extreme illness. I know a lot of adults who could never come to grips with a decision like that. The way I see it, this comes down to people wanting to force their societal and religious views on someone else. Why not put your energy into upholding the constitution instead?

I wish i was as strong as this boy,coz i swear regardless of my beliefs,i am so scared of dying that i would do anything to live thats how bad it is,I think that boy is so courageous and he stood by his faith and at the end of the day his conscience and faith won,what has happened to us? we dump,hate,fight withought a conscience withought having any belive or faith in whatever we do.Once more kudos to this young boy he has demonstrated his true love for God and his believe.There are few like this 14 year old out there who would stick to their faith like he did and i am so embarrassed to say that i am not one of them

FYI.... Jehovah's Witnesses have a bloodless surgery program at hospitals around the world. They work closely with physicians to have successful medical care with out direct blood transfussions but with cutting edge alternatives. Many non-Jehovah's Witnesses ask to be part of this program. Call Swedish, they hold seminars, you might actually learn something very informational.

Poor kid was Brainwashed.

All of you that commend this boy I think have lost sight of the fact that he was most likely brainwashed and under pressure thinking that noone would love him if he decided to live. Being shunned and excommunicated is probably very scary for a child....yes he was a child. I have a 14 year old and she is still very much a child. The fact that the JW's would not let him just speak on his own without them constantly around him, coercing him and putting pressure on him tells me that the decision was not his own.

LR you are absolutely full of it. Ron is correct, and I can prove this by my own personal experience. I was baptized at 14. By that ripe old age I had already been under pressure for two full years. Why? Because some 12 year old did it in another congregation. I was constantly told that if I was more spiritual I would have done the deed already.

And LLC, would you care to expound on what freedoms I have that are directly from the JW's? I know they're a litigious bunch, I'm just curious if they have given me anything that I should be so proud of that I can ignore the 10's of thousands they have murdered due to their idiotic rules and regulations.

Lisa,the bible say for example DO NOT KILL it doesnt say ooh its ok to kill if you use a kalashnikov or an atomic bomb,if JWs believe that blood shouldnt enter their bodies regardless of whatever method then thats what they believe and lets respect that

So children under the age of 18 cannot vote, enlist in the military, buy cigarettes, play certain video games, but apparently they ARE mature enough to make the choice whether to live or die? The WA government is as much to blame for this as the JW's. This child was clearly under the mind control and pressure of the JW's and had no other choice but to do as they wished.
JW's are so afraid of joining the "real world" and hearing the truth, they scare the hell out of their own people to keep them under their thumbs. JW's are a disgrace to our society and did a horrible disservice to that boy.

To those who cry "CULT", how is making a decision on which medical treatments to accept (and remember, some people have died because they accepted a blood transfusion) any different from someone who defends the "freedom" of their country by fighting in some war? The only difference I can see is that if you give your life for your country, you are hailed a hero, if you give up your life for your religious beliefs, you are a cultist.

Blood transfusions aren't a panacea, in fact many have died from tainted blood, rejection, or receiving the wrong type. However, because of the stand that JWs take, bloodless surgery and treatments have benefitted us all, so rather than being repulsed by their beliefs, I suggest that you thank the medical advances that have been made because of it.

The doctors treating the young man supported his decision (according to the Seattle Times) and so did the judge, so I can't understand why you 'holier than thous' can't. Unless you don't believe in letting people to be free to choose what they want for themselves. Try living and let live, not live and tell others how to live. I doubt you would like others forcing you to live your life the way they want you to.

Finally, why are you blaming the aunt and the JWs? How about his drug addicted parents that abandoned him? I suppose all you cult criers would have thought it better he grow up with junkies.

LR,
I am the youngest of 7 children. 4 of my older brothers were elders (none are now).
I am 39 years old and was in the jw orgnization until I was 29.
Hence, my facts are in order.

I think it is actually ironic that the jw's don't condone infant baptism. To be perfectly honest, they are not far away from doing it by letting someone as young as 11 or 12 be baptised.

Again, I state someone that young is not qualified to be baptised. There may be some 'quiet and respectable' young people, but that does not make them mature. Those young people at that age probably even have a lot of good reading skills by reading the Watchtowers and Awakes and other literature of the jw's.

So, we have a young person age 12 who can read and write at a very good level and who is polite and respectable. But, are their minds and emotions going to change during the years after that? yes, they are. They are going to change and change quite a bit.

To hold someone to a decision that they made with the mind of a 12 year old for the rest of their life is insanity.

And they justify that they don't baptize infants which is supposed to make everything else 'OK'. I am afraid it doesn't quite work that way.

I would get your facts straight LR.

Good day--

Ron

I think what a lot of people are forgetting, is that even though he was only 14, it's not like he just made a random desicion. The doctors would have made certain that he and his family understood every possible outcome for any desicion that was made. I myself got a half hour lecture on the complications of an epidural, and that was for a routine childbirth. His doctors would have discused this issue at length, several times.

In medical situations, a person has the right to refuse any treatment, for ANY reason. That is what Dennis did. He recieved the facts about his condition, thought about, and made a decision. Whether anyone else agrees with that decision does not matter. It was his to make, and he made it.

To say that 14 year olds do not know what death is or what it means to die is insulting. My son is 7, and he understands what it means to die or be dead. This "child" could certainly understand the difference between living with a serious illness and the consequences of refusing treatment.

Reinhart, that is a very poor argument, but I applaud you for trying. You see, it's very easy to logically defend not killing someone. And most of us would never consider it anyways so it is a moot point. If you want to apply critical thinking here, you have to ask why JW's don't allow blood. And you have to look at their track record. Let's do that for a moment.

Has blood always been wrong for a JW? No. It took almost 50 years before this became a law. If it was so bad, why did Jehovah wait so long to shed that piece of light? Why have the rules changed so much during the years? Before, you could not have any blood. Now fractions are allowed, why is that? These are questions you need to ask yourself.

The JW accuracy in shedding light and phrophecy is just as suspect. The original founder believed that he could foretell the end of the world with the use of Egyptian pyramids and a bit of the occult. In fact, his tombstone still has a large pyramid there. Are these the sources you want to be getting your information from?

I think we're forgetting that even if he DID WANT a transfusion, his guardian (being a JW) would have denied it. And even if his guardian had ok'd blood, the congregation elders would have stepped in.

Media coverage like this only makes Jehovah's Witnesses feel stronger...like they faithfully endured "persecution".

It's no surprise to the Lord that Dennis died. I pray for the salvation of this young man's loved ones.

JESUS IS THE ONLY WAY, and being committed to the JW's will not bring you any closer to the truth. *Kudos to Believer's post. The scripture in Acts is referring to idol/animal sacrifice.

Try this: go to google and type ANY religion and the word 'brainwashed.' You will come up with every faction out there claiming that the other is brainwashed because they don't believe the same way. Try it. Type "Jews are brainwashed" or "Muslims are brainwashed" or even "Catholics are brainwashed." lol Lots of axes to grind in this world.

Owen-Wow....you totally missed the mark altogether. The fact that this boy was a child who was under pressure hasn't been addressed by you. If he could not go to war, drink alcohol, drive etc...why should he be able to say he can die? This is when parents, relatives and doctors should have saved his life. A woman wrote on this blog just a few passages back that she knew Dennis and that he did not understand what being a JW was. So what now?

Maria - I wanted a Roger Rabbit tattoo when I was 14. I was lucky to have parents to make the decision for me to wait until I was 18. Laws are there for a reason. Just because the child has the right to refuse medical care does not mean they understand or have the capacity to realize the long term implications of their actions. Death means something completely different to a 14 year old than a 50 year old.

Well Alex since you know it all and think that everyone else is stupid,why are you so interested in this people as a religion? it seems that you are very keen on what their teachings are and what they have evolved to be,you see in away you are actually promoting them and everytime you post a comment it makes one want to invite this people in and try and find out what they really teach.You see if i wanted to find out about their teachings i wouldnt do that from you because its evident that you want to dominate a topic and show that you are the only one who is correct,perfect traits of a brainwasher!

reinhardt-Whoa! Some big thoughts! It seems that you have been offended! Alex actually has some good points...from what I can see your only point is trying to make Alex look bad because he made an educated statement!

Marla--

With all due respect, one of the major factors in the boy's decision was the ever 'moving target' of the various jw doctrines and beliefs.

So it simply was not just his age. It was age and much misinformation that could very well change by the time he 'would' have been say 21 or 31 years old.

Ron

“Remember, now, your Grand Creator in the days of your young manhood… Eccl. 12:1 How unusual to hear of a young person with faith! I imagine his guardian wanted to protect him from any additional stress from those who were without faith when he was in such a weak state. I doubt very much that if he did want to talk to them that they would have been prevented from doing so. No one needs a circus around them when they are dying. Many of you seem to think that blood transfusions are some sort of magic cure. At best, it MIGHT have bought him some time. Maybe. There is a greater possibility of pain and prolonged suffering. Is there value when we die in having a heart that is calm and at peace with god? I think so.

Faith in god, faith in his word and the courage to obey the standards and laws found therein are qualities very few people have. 2 Thessalonians says that "...faith is not a possession of all people." In reading all the comments, I note that most think it is alright to cast aside god's requirements if it is expedient. Is it god's law to abstain from blood? Is obedience necessary? Does it matter if we worship god the way he wants us to? Or, should we tailor our beliefs to what feels good to ourselves? Should we carefully examine and read the scriptures with a view to understanding and a desire to get to know god and what he requires? Solomon said in Ecclesiastes 12:13 "Fear the true God and keep his commandments. For this is the whole obligation of man." I believe in respecting the viewpoints of others; but I don't find much of that in all this ranting. I know people can say any sort of negative, hateful thing -- that is your prerogative, but I have to say the majority of what I have read here today vilifying the witnesses is not true, not at all.

Reinhart, touche. I'm very glad that I was able to provoke you into a comment that is not directly out of the Watchtower. You are correct in assuming that I know a fair amount about the cult known as JW's. You are also correct in the assumption that I have an axe to grind. I'll relate a few of my experiences. When I was a child, I had to watch a close friend die from the lack of a blood transfusion. Because my dad was the head elder, I was privy to the fact we had a child molester who was being hidden in our congregation. Thank god the law caught him. I also lost an infant cousin to the blood issue. I watched 3 dear childhood friends commit suicide after being kicked out of this cult. I have another friend who is on 23 different medications due to an elder abusing her as a child. She's almost a vegetable now, he is still an elder. On top of that, I've watched dozens try to make their own way after being tossed to the curb by this so called religion. I have more compassion in my fingernail then they do as a whole. I guess I'm what you would call a critic. I will expose the JW's for what they are anytime I can. You are wrong on one thing though. I don't want you to believe a single word I'm saying. I want you to do the research yourself.

Owen-
You are SO RIGHT! The people who have given their life for this country's freedoms ARE HEROES...Fighting for freedoms that so many people take for granted. JW's top the list. JW's are ALLOWED to believe in their WRONG religion. JW's are ALLOWED not to serve in the military. Do not berate the FREEDOM that we all have in this country.

Lisa-Wow, how did I miss the mark? Because I'm not carrying the emotional baggage that you and some others are?

First, I've been married to a devout JW for 27 years. I've been to their meetings and conventions and know many of them. None of them are forced to get baptised (in fact, they study and go answer questions about the faith before they are baptised, so they know exactly what they are getting into) and even if baptised, none are forced to remain a JW, any can disassociate themselves from the congregation anytime they wish to. So nobody is forced to beome one or remain one.

That said, if he made the choice to become a JW, his choice should be respected. Even if he had not made the choice, his legal guardian has the right to make the choice for him. If you find that offensive, and assuming you have children, how would you feel if people forced you to raise them contrary to a way you believed? How would you react if a judge ordered your kids to attend JW meetings? No doubt you would feel your rights as a parent were being violated, and rightly so. If you wouldn't like the government or society telling you how to raise your kids, then you really have no right to tell others how to raise theirs.

There is quite a lot of legal precedent to this issue, which is probably why the judge upheld Dennis' decision. I have no doubt that if Dennis had waffled at any point, neither the judge nor his doctors would have supported his decision. Put down your emotional baggage, if possible, and perhaps you will to.

Hmm, someone posted they knew Dennis and knew he didn't understand what being a JW is? Wake up dearie, this is the internet, anyone can say anything, however it doesn't make it so. Besides, if that were the case, why and how did Dennis get the doctors and a judge to respect and support his decision???

So what now?

EX-JW,

Thanks for proving my point that nobody is forced to be a JW.

For the record, I wasn't berating the freedom in the US, nor was I berating those who choose to serve in the military and sacrifice their lives. My point was that if they can be heralded as heroes for their decision, than those who are willing to sacrifice their lives for their beliefs should equally be respected. Apologies if I seemed to be disrespecting to any other than those who think they can tell others how to live.

Owen-Have you forgotten already that we are talking about a death of a child here? You take it like it is so frivolous. I think YOU need to wake up and ask yourself...would you sit back and watch your child die? You never did address the fact that this was a child. Could you just sit there and watch while the baby you raised died when there could have been something you could have done to prevent it? If so then let my emotions run free because you must not have any. You say...how would I feel if I was forced to put my child through JW meetings....well that is not a matter of life and death. I would do whatever it would take to make sure my child survived. So in you trying to belittle me only makes you look as if you have no emotion.

Wow! Lots of opinions and judgements from those wise in their own eyes!

Dennis, I look forward to seeing you in the paradise that Jah promises in His word, the Bible at - John 6:40; 11:25; 5:28,29 & Proverbs 2:21. My sympathy goes out for the family and for their loss but knowing that they will also see Dennis in the coming paradise on earth!

Thats all! Will keep my opinions to myself and judgements to the Creator!

Lisa-Sorry to disagree, but it seems, by reading your posts, you are the one who is belittling anyone who isn't standing on the same soapbox you are. Funny how you now are trying to accuse me of belittling.

At any rate, to indulge your "what if", I have two children. My daughter was baptised when she was 15, and if she were in the same situation that Dennis was in and it was her choice to refuse a blood transfusion, then yes, I would have stood by her. My son, however, has never had a desire to be a JW, and had he been in the same situation, I would not have allowed my wife to force her beliefs on him. I hope that satisfies your curiousity.

I'm sorry if you find me "unemotional" if I respect the beliefs of others, even if they aren't mine. I don't like people telling me what to do or how to believe, so I don't force my views on others. If anything, my pet peeve is people like you who seem to think you have the right to tell them what to believe or how to live. Dennis may have only been 14, yet he made a very mature decision, and had the support of his doctors and a judge, something you seem to be overlooking in all your posts.

Last night was a South Park episode that speaks about religion in whole. I know that some of you may say "South Park? What an idiot!" However, I believe what they said to be true. They were discussing the Mormons and how they came about. After each revelation on the Mormons they played a catchy little tune. It goes "dumb, dumb, dumb dumb, dumb, dumb". I understand that some of you beleive that Dennis shouldn't have made his own decision but I must commend his family for allowing him to make his own decision and respecting it however, if his decision was based on faith then I echo what the song says "dumb, dumb, dumb, dumb dumb!" I at one time was a believer, though the older I get the more questions I have arise that no one can answer without solid proof. It is unfortanate that so many follow a potential book of fiction called The Bible. I hope that everyone understands that 3000 years from now our ancestors will be laughing at us saying "what idiots! They thought that some guy died and came back to life?" Just as we do now on the people that worshiped the sun or those 13 people who committed suicide to ride the comet to God. I say let Dennis live in the memory of his friends and family and cherish the time you yourself have with your friends and family.

Leukemia HealthLINE article:
"Like all cancers, the prognosis for leukemia depends on the patient's age and general health. According to statistics, more than 60% of leukemia patients survive for at least one year after diagnosis.

Acute myelocytic leukemia (AML) has a poorer prognosis rate than acute lymphocytic leukemias (ALL) and the chronic leukemias. In the last 15 to 20 years, the five-year survival rate for patients with ALL has increased from 38% to 57%.

Interestingly enough, since most childhood leukemias are of the ALL type, chemotherapy has been highly successful in their treatment. This is because chemotherapeutic drugs are most effective against actively growing cells. Due to the new combinations of anti-cancer drugs being used, the survival rates among children with ALL have improved dramatically. Eighty percent of the children diagnosed with ALL now survive five years or more, as compared to 50% in the late 1970s.

According to statistics, in chronic lymphoid leukemia, the overall survival for all stages of the disease is nine years. Most of the deaths in people with CLL are DUE TO INFECTIONS or other illnesses that occur as a result of the leukemia.

In CML, if bone marrow transplantation is performed within one to three years of diagnosis, 50-60% of the patients survive three years or more. If the disease progresses to the acute phase, the prognosis is poor. Less than 20% of these patients go into remission.

Owen, I couldn't agree with you more. Well said.

CULT! CULT! CULT! AND if that word is too strong for you try, HIGH MIND CONTROL.
In my 32 yrs in the JW's, I was often accused of being in a cult....so I would go home and research why I wasn't in a cult...BUT I USED WATCHTOWER LITERATURE FOR MY RESEARCH....HELLO!!!! Where was my brain...oh I forgot...it was thoroughly washed.
The 5 meetings a week is to reinforce the brain washing by regurgitating the same propaganda over and over again.
How many of you JW's out there are just staying in it so you won't lose your families, friends, etc.? Because once you are in it, you can't get out without serious repercussions.
I especially feel sorry for the kids, as they have no choice.
The WT has staff lawyers to give prepared statements for all questions from the media.
The pedophile cover-up in the JW's is WORSE than in the Catholic Church.
Check out WWW.SILENTLAMBS.ORG if you really want the TRUTH.

Debbie: I was able to get out after the 2002 Dateline show about JW's pedophile cover-up. Since I had been in for 32 yrs, and was highly indoctrinated, I had to go thru CULT EXIT COUNSELING. It took about 6 mo. to completely recover from the brain-washing.
It is incredible to me that this sort of thing goes on today but more people are beginning to question cult teachings and think for themselves.
JW's were considered a cult from their inception but over time, they have achieved a level of acceptability in society.
I might add that most individual members are good people and are trying to do what they are taught is "right." It is the WT Governing Body that is corrupt and provides the brain-washing techniques and materials.
1000's of lives have been lost due to the JW teachings...all the way back to Hitler's regime.
Sad...sad....sad!!!

Rob Piercy; your statistics for Leukemia survival rates are a bit deceptive. While it's true that CLL survival rates, while undergoing "maintenance" transfusions, may have a 5 year survival rate the survival rate for AML is nill.

There are 4 major types of Leukemia and of those AML is the worst. Each one has several subtypes and some subtypes of AML are, very flatly, a DEATH SENTENCE!

Since we haven't heard a diagnosis beyond the generic "Leukemia" we cannot speculate on what his chances would have been if he'd undergone a transfusion.

Ergo, neither can you!

Lies, damn lies and statistics.

Abaddon

P.S. a little Hepatitis-C from the transfusion would have certainly improved his chances.

First, which is interesting, Jehovah God does not personally speak to the Society, they do not hear his voice. Second, Jehovah does not send angels to communicate with the Society, or speak to them messages from Jehovah. As one of the Governing Body, state, "we have no direct line of ommunication with Jehovah." Throughout the Bible Jehovah communicated with mankind, but, not so today. The Bible says, "let EVERY MAN be proved a LIAR, but, LET GOD BE FOUND TRUE." "Do not PUT YOUR TRUST IN EARTHLY MAN." Since the Society has no DIRECT LINE OF COMMUNICATION WITH JEHOVAH OR WITH HIS ANGELS,
I believe matters of life and death, and other matters, should be left to ONE'S OWN CONSCIENCE AND JEHOVAH GOD HIMSELF. Personally, I don't believe in blood transfusion myself, the blood is you as a person, and everyone is different and unique. We all have different fingerprints dont we? I do believe in Jehovah's Witnesses faith, but, when it comes to the blood issue, that should be one's own personal decision. What do you think of suicide, murder, manslaughter and Jehovah's view on these serious sins? Could not one be quilty of helping others to die by taking a blood transfusion, or one who basically commits suicide, by letting himself die, knowing he would live?

There is quite a distinct line here of JW supporters and JW opposers.

Obviously the opposers are advocates of the word cult. The supporters seem to think this matter, this title of a cult is irrelevant and that "freedom" should be upheld so that our rights as parents and as Americans can continue and we can raise our children as we see fit.

Herein lies the key to why the term CULT is so important.

Yes, the word cult is defined in many different ways and the JWS will gladly tell you by definition every religion of the world is in fact a cult and they would be 100% correct.

However the religious zealots of the world that fall into a MIND CONTROLLING CULT are a whole other breed. This mind controlling cult is the reason that such "freedoms" should not exist.

People in positions of power should NOT be free to prey on 14 year olds and people grieving at a gravesite service to indoctrinate them into believing all the woes of the world are based on the sin of one man, or that by dying a painful death as a leukemia patient you will be guaranteed a position in an ideallic paradise earth.

This is not a freedom we should protect or enforce. This is opression and control. Just as we fight terrorisim and extremist suicide bombers, we should also fight to have mind controlling cults outlawed and strict santions on the practices we allow them to enforce in the name of their ludicrous cult.

Who can guarantee that this young man would have lived if he had a blood transfusion, this is nothing more than poor reporting by reporters. What was his chance of survival? How long would he have lived? What would have been the quality of life?
these are questions that should be asked and answered.

As stated above, by thoughts are one could be quilty of murder, manslaughter or suicide by refusing a blood transfusion or helping or assisting this person or any other individual to kill themselves by refusing a blood trnasfusion. What do you think Jehovah God's view on suicide, murder and manslaughter would be in comparison to saving one's life or other lives? If only a blood transfusion can accomplish in saving a life, how do we not know that if we allow ourselves to die by refusing a blood transfusion we would not be quilty before God of the act of suicide, or one's who assisted in the death of another by helping that one refuse blood of murder or manslaughter? Would not a individual or the individuals who assisted in a JW's death vs taking a blood transfusion, be quilty of murder, manslaugter, or suicide? Do you really believe Jehovah would rather have you commit suicide, murder, or manslaughter, or preserve a human life? Does not the Bible say, he is the God of the living and not of the dead? Did not Jesus shed his own blood for all mankind?

Last year my brother was told that without a blood transfusion he would absolutly die. Well guess what, they pumped him full of that so called lifesaving blood, and he still died. The doctors told us that this blood would save his life. What they didn't tell us is that he was already basicly dead when he got to the hospital. He had a temperature of 115 degrees for hours. A human can't survive that. This all took place at one of the supposed best hospitals in the nation. Is what the doctors say always true? These doctors were well aware of my brothers outcome. Basically they lied.

STOP!!!!

We can agree on one thing, we are all human. Now starting with the basics. Drop religion, drop sarcasm, drop personal attacks, drop it all and focus on.....we are human and like any creature/plant on this planet we are here to grow and live the best we can.
Stay with me, no god, no government, just life...if we are damaged we want/need to heal. If we are hungry we eat, if we are thirsty we drink, if we are injured/sick we want to heal to continue life. That is the basic goal of all life on this planet (save the Lemmings???). Dennis should be alive, we all want to live. I am glad I am alive. Are you? Are you glad when someone dies? Who is the sick one???

See you one day I hope.

I am amazed every time I read this blog.Somuch misinformation,and partial truths. Some people have so much hate.
Okay, if you do not want this kid to decide what happens with his life...was he old enough to have sex?
Howmany 14 year old do?How many schools distribute condoms? Everyone thinks he basically allowed himslf to die.Maybe he had a hope. I see many of you believe other wise. I tust the judge. I believe the judge would be able todecide if the kid could make an ADULT decision or not. His adult father apparently could not care for him until it was too late. SAD. no matter what you believe it is all sad. Imagine no religion.

Stacey, you are a bit twisted.

Interesting diatribe Emma. Who is to be responsible for determining who is an unacceptable MIND CONTROLLING CULT versus who is just an acceptable run of the mill CULT? You? If so, then you are a MIND CONTROLLING CULT, and so I cannot protect or support your freedom.

Pan, get a grip. There is no guarantee that Dennis would be alive if he had a transfusion. In fact, if it were as little as a couple of hundred years ago, medical science would have been clamouring for phlebotomy, which all of us would be rolling our eyes over. Nobody is "glad" when somebody dies. And nobody I know is happy when they are forced to do something against their will. Being human means that not all of us are going to desire/believe the same thing as someone else. The best we can do is tolerate and respect our differences. Or we can be small minded, berating and belittling those who are different. It is quite a distinct line, and it is obvious which side we put ourselves on.

Let's focus this blog on those who knew Dennis. I'm on your side Pan!
(3:01pm today)

If you are reading this,and have not read every comment,there are so many,please at least read Owens,and NO GODS.
DO you want no religion?
At least the guy is upfront. SomepeopleI believe have a hidden agenda.NO GOD does not have a HIDDEN agenda. But do you like his ideas?
Own is NOT a witness, but is married to one.Seems like a straight forward guy.
Many others,ya gotta wonder, what is up with their story. So many are just well,in need of therapy.

Owen, Owen, Owen you closet JW. Number one had the treatment started when Dennis was first diagnosed and not waited for the court to make the decision he would have a 70% chance of long term survival.

Second, if you took the time to really think about what I wrote which I hope you do now before running your mouth you might just agree. You are thinking too much. My example was BASIC human need/desire. Not to segregrate ourselves as individuals, which would be a future step, but the basic will to survive. Owen, try to think outside of the box.

For FRED:

"Only Jehovah's Witnesses, those of the anointed remnant and the "great crowd," as a united organization under the protection of the Supreme Organizer, have any Scriptural hope of surviving the impending end of this doomed system dominated by Satan the Devil." - The WATCHTOWER September 1, 1989; page 19 "Remaining Organized for Survival Into the Millennium"

Does anyone remember in the 70's when the JW's predicted the end of the world and many of their followers sold their family farms, houses, belongings and enjoyed what they were led to believe as the last days on this earth? JW's chime in anytime to correct me. Anyway...the time came and no end of the world. Some who still had something sat on their roofs waiting for the end which never came. I asked a JW friend years later what the deal on that was and he stated it was a mathmatical error and misinterpretation by the elders but the end WAS near! Ha! What a load of crap. Anybody?

For anyone who thinks The WATCHTOWER practices the same kind of tolerance and open-mindedness that they ask from others:

"Do not conclude that there are different roads, or ways, that you can follow to gain life in God's new system. There is only one. There was just one ark that survived the Flood, not a number of boats. And there will be only one organization — God's visible organization — that will survive the fast-approaching "great tribulation." It is simply not true that all religions lead to the same goal… You must be part of Jehovah's organization, doing God's will, in order to receive his blessing of everlasting life". -- YOU CAN LIVE FOREVER (©1982 & 1990, WTB&TS) page 255

EVERYONE - please read this. I am an adult, non-JW, Dennis' friend and I need to share HIS words he told a trusted non-JW adult in private while the cloud of JW's normally surrounding him left his side for a few moments. This initial conversation began when he was first admitted to Children’s - This adult asked Dennis his course of treatment. He explained the alternative methods the doctors were going to use BUT in the event they were unsuccessful, he was willing to consider a transfusion since he trusted his doctors. A week later, with early signs of heart failure and due to his low blood count from treatment and impending death, surprisingly, he rejected the doctor's concern that a transfusion was the only course that could save his life. When this trusted non-JW adult reached Dennis again and asked why he refused the transfusion, he simply replied, "there are more people who want me to support my faith". For those who had the opportunity to follow Dennis' web page before his aunt cancelled it, JW's from around the world were encouraging just this. One JW even wrote that Dennis was not just a JW member, but an actual Witness. Yes, Dennis did choose eternal life - he was not coerced by "A" third party as Judge John M. Meyer stated at the hearing, which is what the State attempted to prove....Dennis was, in fact, coerced by "Hundreds" of JW brothers and sisters. This issue should not be about a religious belief, but rather about a system that supports a 14 year old child is mature enough to choose between life and death - when they are not even allowed to drive, vote, or enlist in the military. Children are influenced by the immediate people in their life - they just want to please those they love.

Nathan! Owen! The rest of you! When are you going to wake up like I did???!!! I will bet my own life that what many if not all religions preach means nothing and is a load of CRAP!!! WAKE UP!!! Be aware of your surroundings, try to think outside of the bleeping box!!! Stop being blind religious fanatics and truly think for yourselves. There is another world where most of what you believe is true but you do not need the boundaries of religion to teach it to you. Join the human race and leave your narrow mind behind.

Dennis' Friend

Thank you. You are exactly right. I too knew Dennis and know this to be true. At least we can sleep and have peace knowing the truth. Dennis, we will see you again someday. Until then take care.

Thank you Dennis' friend and Pan. I think your words finally ended this senseless debate/argument.

All you hate-mongers and apostates, you dont seem to get it. This youngster died because of the following. He listened to Gods thinking rather than yours and Satans. Read this again and compare it to what the scripturs say. Dennis appreciated Jesus' Sacrifice that his Father, Jehovah asked him to make.
Everyone seems to be ignoring why God said do-not eat blood.
When the Israelites were slaves in Egypt, God told Moses in his last plague on Egypt, to tell Pharoah that if he did not let His people go,he would kill the firat born of them all. In order for the Israelites to be saved they were told to slaughter a perfect lamb, and sprinkle the blood of it over their door posts. Then the avenging angels would pass over thier home and the would be saved. That is what really happened the blood of that lamb saved them from destruction and the first born of the Egyptians all died.
That was a foreshadowing of the blood of the perfect lamb Jesus Christ that would be the salvation of all mankind if they accepted the sacrifice of his blood as their salvation. So now you can see why God Jehovah, views all blood as so sacred. Using blood for the saving of our temorary life now, shows a lack of faith in Jehovahs promises for the future and is the same as trampeling on the Ransom sacrifice of Christ's Blood. Those are the facts and God bless Dennis for his courage in abstaining from blood transfusions. Shame on all of you who wanted him to reject the value of Christs blood, and especially all of you who know these facts and ignore them in this blog.
Dennis knew Blood is sacred to God,and so should you.

I stand corrected. The ignorant have spoken.

Bob, blah, blah , blah. I heard about a UFO, Jesus is coming back (it's only been 2000+ years). Read my blog entry at 7:17pm and answer that. Nobody else has. Chickens!!!

(((((((((Dennis' True Friends))))))))

I am so sorry you have had to go through this and watch someone you love go through this tragedy.

Thank you for sharing his side of this with us and helping us understand without a doubt he was a VICTIM and did not choose to die.

It is absolutely heart wrenching to know that the innocence and immaturity of youth was used against this child by his aunt, his "elders" and those constantly pressuring him to choose "eternal life with Jehovah", and it cost him the only life he had.

I now thank you Emma. You obviously are one of the truly enlightened ones of whom I have spoken too. You truly get it. Thank you, I was beginning to feel lonely.

Owen? Nathan? Bob? Anyway, a simple search and the first blind pick and here is example one:

1914, 1915, 1918, 1920, 1925, 1941, 1975 and 1994, etc. were other dates that the Watchtower Society (WTS) or its members predicted.
Since late in the 19th century, they had taught that the "battle of the Great Day of God Almighty" (Armageddon) would happen in 1914 CE. It didn't.
The next major estimate was 1925. Watchtower magazine predicted: "The year 1925 is a date definitely and clearly marked in the Scriptures, even more clearly than that of 1914; but it would be presumptuous on the part of any faithful follower of the Lord to assume just what the Lord is going to do during that year." 6
The Watchtower Society selected 1975 as its next main prediction. This was based on the estimate "according to reliable Bible chronology Adam was created in the year 4026 BCE, likely in the autumn of the year, at the end of the sixth day of creation." 8 They believed that the year 1975 a promising date for the end of the world, as it was the 6,000th anniversary of Adam's creation. Exactly 1,000 years was to pass for each day of the creation week. This prophecy also failed.
The current estimate is that the end of the world as we know it will happen precisely 6000 years after the creation of Eve. 9 There is no way of knowing when this happened.

Any JW care to chime in???

I did not read all the comments, however, I read enough to get the general tenor of the contributers.

Some of my observations are:
Most have no faith in religious doctrine, willing to cast it aside for personal gain.
Some were disgruntled or former Jehovah's Witnesses.
These persons, of course, would have negative attitudes toward someone acting on strong faith. They also often referred to the disfellowshipping process, that he would be rejected and shunned.

Then there were those who had faith of their own although not Jehovah's Witnesses. These persons showed respect for Dennis' decision though "respectively" not agreeing with the doctine.

Now we come to me.
My son was born with "severe" Tetology of Fallot, which is 4 heart defects in one, and in his case more defects were thrown in. For nearly 14 years we, his parents, made the choice of "No Blood", and for this reason we travelled all over the country to get him the best surgical care that we could get, all without blood. He was operated on by Denton Cooley, Subramunthy Subramanian, and Albert Star, outstanding surgeons in the field of bloodless open heart surgery. For that matter if you go to Albert Star's website, there is a picture of our son and Star together.

Our son was a month shy of 14 when he had his last surgery. After the surgeon met with the three of us, he asked my wife and I to leave the room, he wanted to talk to our son--alone.

When he came from the room he said that our son was to be the primary signer of the operative permit and we were to be secondary, for our son understood everything perfectly. He is now 29 years old, and we are not active players, but are on the sideline. We can serve as coaches because of our experience but all decisions are his, and he is going in the same direction as when he was 14, as he is going through the next faze and is soon facing surgery of greater magnitude than previously.

Therefore those that complained about Dennis being "protected" may not know the full story of what actually transpired between Dennis and the doctors and the judge.

In regards to being disfellowshipped, one is not disfellowshipped for an action, but for the attitude relative to the action.

In regards to doctrine, every 'religion' confessing Jesus as Christ recognize that it is the blood of the Christ that gives one salvation (life). Therefore, where is the faith in the blood of the Christ, if one puts faith in the blood of someone else.

Why is it a healthy nurse wears a faceshield, gloves, a gown or some other form of body cover to start a blood transfusion on a sick person? I have been in the medical field for 45+ years, and would not accept a blood transfusion even if not one of Jehovah's Witnesses.

Pan,

"You are thinking too much." I'm sorry, how thoughtless of me.

"My example was BASIC human need/desire." There is a difference between needs (thirst, hunger, sleep, etc.) which aren't much different from any animal as they are necessary for survival, and desires, which aren't things we need for survival.

"Not to segregrate ourselves as individuals, which would be a future step, but the basic will to survive." How can you ignore the fact that we are individuals with different desires, thoughts, and beliefs? Oh sure, we all need sustenance and covering, but beyond that (think outside the box) we are different, and to repeat myself, the best we can do is tolerate and respect those differences.

You stated earlier that you were a friend of Dennis. I would not consider anyone who would get on a blog and question my personal decision and discredit my beliefs because of their personal experiences a friend. Friends support their friends. If I have to get out of the box to believe otherwise, I'll have to decline

"Nathan! Owen! The rest of you! When are you going to wake up like I did???!!!" S810, are you really Awake? (pun intended) Nathan has steadfastly been against JWs, I'm married to one and have a daughter who is one, but am tolerant of their beliefs, as well as others. If being intolerant is your idea of being awake, I'll choose being asleep.

Emma, if Dennis was a victim and the choice wasn't his, why did the doctors and the judge support him? I have a hard time believing his anonymous "friends" that show up in a blog over that of people of authority that actually had contact with him.

I present example number two:

http://members.aol.com/Beyondjw/1975.htm

And the truth shall set you free. My thanks, and my condolances to the friends of Dennis who were so eloquent in talking about him. He seemed like a great kid who was robbed of his life by the murderous JW organization. I can only imagine that on one week he was so courageous, and full of life that he wanted to live. And he stated that to his friends. And then, a moment later, the HLC scared him to death. The father needs to get a lawyer now! So does anyone else who's had a family member murdered by this cult.

Interesting comments all around. But it has me wondering. If religon had nothing do to with it, would you feel the same? Let's just suppose that he was an average 14 year old, who did his own research and decided that he did not want a blood transfusion. Would you still claim he was only a child, or would you say "What maturity he showed"? Would you still be against him if he was not a JW? Because the fact that he was is the only reason that this tragic story is considered news.

Owen, please look at Pan's entry at 3:01pm. I look forward to your rambling. Also I see you still have avoided my question at 7:17pm and my following examples. Would really love to hear from you about those.

Last, your ignorance shines through assuming (ass-u-me, thanks a lot for the association) I didn't support, nor to I tolerate. I tolerate your ignorance isn't that something? I like your idea, go to sleep and let the adults talk.

Alex, I now add you to my thank you's.

Don,

There is a fundamental flaw in your argument. Dennis did not refuse the transfusions due to the dangers inherent in blood, he refused based on religious dogma alone.
Your points of "faith in the blood of Christ" and the fear of contamination from blood are incongruous.
Do you refuse because of your fear of what's in the blood? Where is your faith in your blood of Christ?

S810, what's your point? I'm not here to debate whether the JWs are correct or not in their beliefs. I happen to be in
Vancouver for some job training and saw the story on the NWCN and through their website got directed here. My only interest was because I knew my wife would be interested in the story, but when I saw the jaded remarks I chose to chime in. Everyone here has the right not to believe what the JWs preach, but the minute someone says that JWs don't have the right to believe or worship as they choose, than they are, in my opinion, an intolerant bigot.

"Owen, please look at Pan's entry at 3:01pm." Posted by: S810 | November 29, 2007 8:10 PM

S810, please look at my entry at 8:00pm and you'll see (or you can get your mom to point it out for you) that I referenced Pan's 3:01pm entry.

"Last, your ignorance shines through assuming (ass-u-me, thanks a lot for the association) I didn't support, nor to I tolerate."

Assuredly (ass-u-r edly) you don't support or tolerate Dennis' decision. Read your entry 7:50pm

What's with the time and date obsession?

Owen, as my grandfather taught me, "Never argue with an idiot, people might not know the difference." I hope you wake up someday but for now I bid you good day.

S810, this is what the JW's are hoping for. Don't leave yet. I bet that Owen, or any other JW's will not meet in a public forum. As an apostate, I know Owen will tuck his tail and run. But how about a one on one debate Owen? Let's make it a public forum, where you have to divulge your real name. I'm sure the society won't mind you talking to an apostate.

'Stacey, you are a bit twisted.' First, I cant find a post by anyone called Stacey and second, what caused you to say that?

And according to the JWs, he definitely was NOT old enough to have sex....... or drive, or smoke, or vote, or get married, or gamble, or drink, or serve in the armed forces (die for his country)...but he was mature enough to make this kind of decision???

S810, I never got your grandfather's advice, but I thank you for sparing any further confusion and embarrassment. I really appreciate your looking out for my welfare.

"for now I bid you good day." Posted by: S810 | November 29, 2007 8:31 PM

And I will bid you a good night, because I don't want to look like an idiot.

Aborting (Killing) a baby is acceptable by this society but a personal religious conviction isn't. That is a double stand..isn't it "new world order".

Too late Owen, answer the question

Alex, just waiting for intelligent conversation without ignorance. So far they are most dodging of our comments. Ignorance is bliss.

Thanks again for understanding.

I know, trust me I know. Hence an all out discussion on an open forum where names are allowed. Do you think Owen will bite?

Shhh, Alex! Owen must sleep now lest he have to answer to us intelligently. Can't bite in your sleep. ;)

Owen, in case you're wondering.... that's your own shit you smell. It was not fair of me to offer to debate you in public. You know that as soon as I found out who you were, I would report you to the elders, and then where would you be? Good call, keep hiding.

Alex and S810 you are right. I am wrong. I have to go now before my wife sacrifices me to another false prediction about the end of the world.

There wasn't that easy? ;)

Alex..Why are you so bitter? Move on, don't waste your breath on trying to turn someone around! Change your ill feelings, you might be a happier person!

It was so easy that I'm expecting an open debate. When and where?

The offer goes to you as well Cal. When this cult has affected you the way it has me, you'll understand

Alex, (is that your real name?)

"But how about a one on one debate Owen?"

Debate what? My belief that people should be allowed to believe what they want and tolerate it? No thanks, I'll stand by it. That the JWs have the "truth"? Not my call, you'd have to debate my wife or daughter on that one.

I hope that my declining gives you satisfaction. May I suggest using a tissue? It would be messy to foul your keyboard.

Sadly, I am not satisfied by your decline to my invitation. You're getting cagey. That's why you asked if Alex is my real name. Yes it is, and I'll give you another big hint for the borg.....

My last name was......... wait for it, as I was a bastard child, and had to take the ridiculous last name to save me from ridicule. It was Barfoot. In case you can't figure it out, call bethal, canada side. So... Alex Barfoot, call the headquarters!!!

Brother Bob said:

"All you hate-mongers and apostates, you dont seem to get it. This youngster died because of the following. He listened to Gods thinking rather than yours and Satans. Read this again and compare it to what the scripturs say. Dennis appreciated Jesus' Sacrifice that his Father, Jehovah asked him to make."

Bob, when JWs refused to accept vaccinations in the 20 years that The WATCHTOWER forbade them, were they listening to Jehovah or to some men in Brooklyn?

Today The WATCHTOWER says it is OK to be vaccinated against disease. Was The WATCHTOWER wrong for 20 years?

When JWs refused to accept organ transplants for the 13 years that The WATCHTOWER forbade them, were they listening to Jehovah or to some men in Brooklyn?

Today The WATCHTOWER says it is none of their business if a person chooses to receive an organ transplant. Was The WATCHTOWER wrong for 20 years?

For more than 60 years The WATCHTOWER has been telling people that God doesn't want them to have blood transfusions. Today they have softened their stand from former years, and The WATCHTOWER is trying to find a way to reveal "new light" that will let JWs treat a whole blood transfusion - not just "fractions" - like an organ transplant - none of their business, because the teaching is from MEN, just as their teachings about vaccinations and organ transplants were.

Enough arguing! dennis is gone.:( :( there's nothing any of us can do that will change the JW views and beliefs. I just want to send my prayers and condolences to Dennis's friends and family. what a tragic thing to have happen. especially at a young age. take care.

Owen, you are losing sight of your own words. You never have truly answered mine, Pan's or Alex's true questions with any validity. To try to end it now with basic answer such as "...stand by it" and "truth" Once again I ask you go back but this time read your own entries and try to stay up with the rest of us. Pan is right, Emma is right,Dennis' friends are right(they know him, they were there, they know what he said in a healthy state. Do you know Dennis personally? Were you there? Go back and read, catch up, stay alert and I will respect you) Alex is right and I can sleep tonight knowing for sure (remember I bet my own life) I know we are all right. You are just grasping at straws at this point. Start over and see if you answers change or is it bedtime yet?

Megan, my heart goes out to you. I feel so bad for all who knew him. The fact is that JW'S are trying to turn this in their light. I can't allow that to happen. I have to fight.

wait owen wants to have a one on one debate? this isn't about that! lets stop making this about us. it's about dennis. so why have a one on one debate it's kind of pointless. ;(

I just feel really bad for dennis's friends. if I had a friend who was in this situation I don't know what I'd do. I'd don't know how to react.

I too refuse to give up. I will fight for Dennis' friends because I am not blind to their pain and suffering. This young man was robbed at a chance to live. Suicide is a selfish act and this constitutes suicide through cult beliefs. Don't drink the kool aid people!!! If not suicide then murder by a man named Jehovah and his followers! Owen I see why you are afraid of your wife. Hard to sleep not knowing you may not wake up.

My bad Megan. It's me who want's the debate. I feel sick that we lost another child. I also feel that I have to debate anyone who wants to sacrifice more kids. It is a bad point that I have to expose JW's

"In regards to doctrine, every 'religion' confessing Jesus as Christ recognize that it is the blood of the Christ that gives one salvation (life). Therefore, where is the faith in the blood of the Christ, if one puts faith in the blood of someone else.

Why is it a healthy nurse wears a faceshield, gloves, a gown or some other form of body cover to start a blood transfusion on a sick person? I have been in the medical field for 45+ years, and would not accept a blood transfusion even if not one of Jehovah's Witnesses."

Life is what it is. Trees due. Animals die. We are part of the Animal Kingdom. We die too. In the end, according to one of the first laws of physics (energy can be neither created nor destroyed), nothing dies. These are simple basics of life that most people begin to understand at some point in their lives.

We try to stay alive as long as possible, in order to enjoy living.

Protection is worn in order to protect. Bodily fluids can infect. For that matter, OUR OWN BACTERIA...can cause infection, IN OURSELVES. The little critters that are in your nose? Well, if they could get into your bloodstream, they'd kill you. But then, as someone who's been in the medical profession for 45+ years, you know this already.

However. There is such a thing called 'chance' in life. Yes, taking a blood transfusion is taking a chance. Taking a drug is also taking a chance. Then again, walking out the front door is taking a chance. But we take that chance for to do anything else would be to have no fight for survival, and no attempt at enjoying our time alive on the planet.

Now, I understand that you believe in the "blood of Christ" being more important than that of an individual. I understand that you believe 'the Bible' is some sort of holy direction. The fact of the matter is, you follow what you choose to (or rather what the cult rules DEEM ACCEPTABLE for you choose to follow), and that's that. You know it, I know it. Anyone who has an ounce of honesty in their hearts and minds knows it. You can protest, you can stand up and scream "I AM ONE OF JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES" until your orgasm neurons blow up. But nothing, but NOTHING, will change the fact that you are simply hardwired into professing a fanatical recitative bundle of irrational and illogical attempts at rationalization.

I wonder...these doctors whom you hold so dearly, do you believe they'll be entering into the "New World", because they have protected "Jehovah's Loved Ones"? Frightening. As much as you attribute their qualities of understanding and compassion, the fact remains that they are all most likely SMART enough to avoid the extremely damaging cult of which you are a part of.

That being said, I'm glad to hear that your son has been able to enjoy more years of his life. I hope his future medical issues go well, and I wish him the very best. I wish you the very best also, as well as everyone else living. We all deserve to be the very best we can be. We ALL deserve to live.

Megan, if you were Dennis' friend as I was you would fight for him since he could not fight for himself. We were called satan's helpers as we have been in this blog also. Any non JW friend was not let in to visit yet he could have many surrounding him if you were JW. Lord forbid he learn the whole truth lest he may have made a better more educated adult. This is about his adopted family and church making sure he died. That's it.

Just stop all of you, now you sound so ridiculous, uneducated low life kinda people. Move on with all your energies, there are so many charities that would love your help!

Well said Pan, my utmost condolances on losing a friend who didn't have to die.

Cee, do not tell me to move on. If you want to help those charities then do so. Either contribute something intelligent to our conversation or "move on" yourself. Those charities need you, we don't.

Cagey? LOL, you are the one who kept harping on using real names. It was tongue-in-cheek.

Bethal, Canada?? I've heard of Brooklyn Bethel (God, Jehovah, Jesus, and the Flying Spaghetti Monster knows my wife has tried to get me to visit it, but I draw the line at conventions in my homestate. There aren't enough wild horses to drag me back east.) but I've never heard of Bethal Canada. Or is that the French spelling? No matter, the French part of Canada is still east, albeit a little north.

It's been an entertaining evening. Thanks.

"wait owen wants to have a one on one debate?" No, Alex wanted a one on one debate, I declined. I suppose it's pointless to explain...

"Owen I see why you are afraid of your wife." I never said I was afraid of my wife, nice of you to make it up though. I have all the guns and she is afraid of them and doesn't know how to use them.

Thank you Alex I appreciate your educated understanding and character. So far you have been the most resiliant and steadfast (S810 you get honorable mention). Dennis would have loved all of this. Trust me I know him, unlike 99% of the rest of you.

you seem to have been going in circles tonight, people are not going to change trust me, let it go! Because you have so much to contribute and time on your hands to blog for hours, be useful...help someone who needs to be helped and perhaps wants to be!

Finally! Thank you Owen you finally have come clean. Take one of your many guns, go back to the monster truck rally in your Nascar jacket, put in some chew and blow your head off. This way your wife, by your own admission, will no longer have to live in fear of you. Your ignorance is my entertainment.

Alex, where are you on this one?

that's horrible. I think you had every right to visit with dennis before he died. so you didn't get to visit with him Pan? unbeliveable. it's sick. he was ur friend. and even though I don't know him, I'd like to now that i know he has great friends fighting for him. good luck. :)

Cee, you just don't have a clue. Go off and use your own energy. I lost a friend, I had a long day, I am spent. I just feel like relaxing and blogging tonight. Why can't you just take your energy and go away for now. I will contribute to your charities another day.

it's all right Pan. just know he's always looking out for you. my prayers are with you. and all dennis's friends.

Trust me pan. I will be here till the end. I refuse to allow the JW's to win on any count. They are all trying to find out about me now. That whole Alex Barfoot thing made them scatter like the cockroaches they are. Just wait till they find out I have lawyers too. Idiots.

Whew! Thank you Megan. I thought we were losing you for a while but you are one of the enlightened ones this evening. I was there I know the truth and it was one of the saddest things I have been involved in. I was robbed of my chance to possibly keep my friend alive. I have to live with that the rest of my life. For now I take solice in this. Take care.

Alex, thank goodness you are still there. S810?

Still here but fading fast. We are the last ones left anyway. I think we have stayed off the ignorance and have come out victorious. It has been my pleasure to stand ground with you all tonight. Onward Christian soldier??? ;)

I think you guys should keep fighting. Pan, Alex, good luck to you both. Pan, take care.

Thank you Megan. I'm here for the duration, as are others.

good. I'll fight too. because what they did to Pan is unforgivable. ;(

Please Owen be there so you can read this, my last entry.

Owen, I do not wish this upon your family (out of respect for life and others) but lord forbid your wife and daughter get into an accident. If you "stand behind" as you stated you possibly not only have to watch them die but be the person who advocates for them and refuses blood or some treatment not allowed by their cult. That is if you can get through the wall of JW's who will prevent you from entering or interfering. Of course you would order their death and also watch them slowly die out of your respect for them. You will just have to 'stand by' your words and 'stand by' and kill them and watch them die out of respect. Now that's love.

Everybody stopped cause there is no reason to continue. He died yesterday. So stop arguing. Good night to you all.Gotta go to bed.

THIS IS FOR LISA:yeah go to bed!!,you must be tired of yapping the whole day,gosh what do you do for a living you have been here basically the whole day!!???

Lisa - You need to calm down. Note the number of people (strangers) telling you this. Let us all remember....we won't change the world on our keyboards. Enjoy the debate but don’t let is raise your blood pressure. You're getting a bit out of control. I agree, his choice was stupid but we can't change it. Sure, it's sad but it is actually MORE sad about the 21 yr old guy who was killed by a Metro bus. His life was going great and one day some stupid driver took it from him. How is his death any less senseless?
This boy was a child, yep...The death of a child is no more or less saddening then the death of another. You should move on to another point. We all know he was a kid.

I do agree with everyone's point that I don't want anyone telling me how to raise my child and I enjoy the freedom to make stupid choices everyday....though I am Catholic and think the JW's are crazy. Legislation is a slippery slope.

That was so sad reinhart. Why don't you attack me instead. That's right, be a man.

S810,

Guns yes, monster truck rallies, Nascar, and chew no. What are you smoking to make this stuff up?

I really like this one: "This way your wife, by your own admission, will no longer have to live in fear of you." Where can you quote me that my wife lives in fear of me? I stated that my wife is afraid of the GUNS and does not know how to use them. Dude, get yourself into a twelve step program.

I'd be cautious about calling anyone here ignorant if I were you. Your cluelessness is my entertainment.

"Please Owen be there so you can read this, my last entry." Uh, like your "last" entry at 8:31 PM? Or is this your last entry before your next "last" entry?

"If you "stand behind" as you stated you possibly not only have to watch them die but be the person who advocates for them and refuses blood or some treatment not allowed by their cult."

I would, just like I would expect my wife to respect my personal choices of no resuscitation or my preference to die with dignity in the face of a terminal illness. Sorry if that upsets your apple cart, but I have sat by friends and family and have decided in advance what I want done if I fall into similar circumstances. If that offends you, too bad. It's my life and my choice.

S810 is gone so I will answer for him.

Good, you just sit around and watch them die. Your right, it is your choice and I am glad you respect them enough to kill them. Good job genius.

I would like to add a few more words here, as to the JW defense of what just happened to this poor boy.

Some have said that he might have gotten AIDS or hepatitis C from a blood transfusion. The chances of complications from blood transfusions in the UK (just because they put together an anonymous reporting system so they could compile stats) is roughly 0.5%. That's about the same risk as having an ingrown toenail removed. And those complications are not all AIDS or hepatitis, it can be anything from an allergic reaction to a blood type mismatch. ALL medical procedures carry some risk, but blood transfusions are a legitimate, safe and NECESSARY medical treatment. Besides, if we are talking risk, his chance of complications from the blood transfusion was 0.5%, his chance of DEATH without it was 100%. Do we now let people die to avoid a small risk of complications?

Some have said that he might have died anyway, even with the blood. Yes, we're all going to die, even those who fully expect to live forever on a Paradise Earth. Again, his chances of death without treatment were 100%, with treatment considerably less. That's a legal argument generally advanced by JW lawyers, and it's roughly the equivalent of the manufacturers of the Pinto arguing that people did not necessarily die from exploding gas tanks, but rather that they might have died from a heart attack before they had a chance to burn to death. I guess lawyers are paid to make up stuff like that, but it's sad to see people buying into it, and even more sad that people are making medical decisions based on the arguments of JW lawyers who are only seeking to avoid taking responsibility for the teachings and actions of their Brooklyn corporate heaquarters.

Lastly, children do not belong to their parents. They are not property. Parents do not have the right to barbecue one of their kids on Saturday and eat them, they do not have the right to starve their children, they do not even have the right to have their kids in a car without a proper child seat; why should they have the right to cause their death through refusing medical treatment? If the boy had been 2, there is no question that child welfare authorities would have stepped in and forced him to accept proper medical treatment. The issue here is just as was reported, that a judge ruled the boy was old enough to make his own decision. Many of us who are familiar with the workings of the JW congregation, including of course the coercion and pressure this boy was exposed to, know that he was not in a position to make a sound decision. Am I saying that I know better than the judge? I guess so, because I know a few things that he doesn't. JWs are encouraged to rehearse precisely this situation with their children, giving their kids certain lines and arguments that they are to use if they are ever called upon to defend 'their' refusal to take blood. They are threatened (and more) if they do not comply. JW kids may appear 'mature' from having spent years going door to door arguing with people and peddling their magazines, but that does not mean they are in fact mature enough to make a life-or-death decision. They are sheltered, and often have little or no exposure to non-JW sources of information. They are told that everyone who is not a JW is bird-food, agents of Satan, about to be executed by God at Armageddon, etc. They are told endless stories of medical errors and incompetence, and told that their refusal to accept blood will probably save their life in an emergency. Paradoxically, those who die are glorified as martyrs, a process we can already observe on this thread. Without the 'religious freedom' defense, the people who killed this child would now be facing criminal charges. Well, I think it's time to get rid of the 'religious freedom' defense. You do NOT have the right to kill a child (yours or anyone else's) for your religion.

As many stories as there are about JWs who died 'faithful', refusing blood, there are also stories of people who secretely begged doctors to give them blood, to take the decision out of their hands (to absolve them of JW-induced guilt), of fathers and mothers who disagreed, only to have the one who wanted to save the child demonised, expelled from the church, denied access to his or her children, while the 'faithful' JW parent got full support from the JW congregation in murdering their child. For all the whining JWs and their supporters do about 'freedom of religion', they certainly do not allow their own followers any freedom. They do not allow their followers freedom of choice, to make up their own mind about blood transfusions (or anything else). Dissent, doubt, is severely punished. Failing to sacrifice your child to the God Jehovah, if and when you are called on to do so, is also severely punished. For those of you who comment on the 'opposers' or 'apostates' on this thread who argue against the JW stand on blood, you should know that many have lost their loved ones in similar circumstances. How do you live with yourself, knowing (or thinking) you could have prevented the useless death of your child, your spouse...?

I had a friend in 7th grade who had to deal with becoming ill with leukemia. She also was a Jehovah Witness, and like this young man made the decission not to have a blood transfusion. She was told by her own parents that it was her who had to make the decission and no one else. She was only 12 years old and like I have read in other posts, I agree she was "brainwashed" by her so called religion into believing that she should die a good Jehovah instead of being an outcast to her entire family and religion. I talked to her mother the day after she died to express how sorry I was the my friend had died and her mothers response was "these things happen". I didn't feel then,and I still don't feel, these things happen and even at the young age of 12 I knew that it was WRONG! No one should die when there is a way to become healthy again. I was also told that it was God's plan and that if he had wanted her to live, he would have healed her. Um, hello!! Why do you think God has given people the knowledge to find these cures?! Since that happened I have not once had any tollerance for a Jehovah's Witness. I have and will always continue to slam the door in the face of anyone coming to my door trying to tell me about the "good word"!! Oh and by the way I am now 36 years old and a Southern Baptist.

To all of you who really want to make a differance and put a stop to this insanity please contact your congressmen and state representatives to get the laws changed to protect these children from misinformation and becoming unwilling victims of the "spiritual family". Please lets not Dennis' death be in vain. He did not want to die; he was trapped and his freinds(who had been called "satan") could only watch in horror as an ill informed judge made a decision that sealed Dennis' fate. Dennis never had a chance after he went to hospital. They had it all planned, they changed doctors until they found one who would honor their wishes then they got Dennis a "mature minor" classification so CPS would have a hard time interveining and finaly the monitored contact with Dennis (for his own good). Yes Dennis was made to be a martyr, but just maybe this can back fire on them if we put enough pressure on the elected officials.

To all of you who really want to make a differance and put a stop to this insanity please contact your congressmen and state representatives to get the laws changed to protect these children from misinformation and becoming unwilling victims of the "spiritual family". Please lets not Dennis' death be in vain. He did not want to die; he was trapped and his freinds(who had been called "satan") could only watch in horror as an ill informed judge made a decision that sealed Dennis' fate. Dennis never had a chance after he went to hospital. They had it all planned, they changed doctors until they found one who would honor their wishes then they got Dennis a "mature minor" classification so CPS would have a hard time interveining and finaly the monitored contact with Dennis (for his own good). Yes Dennis was made to be a martyr, but just maybe this can back fire on them if we put enough pressure on the elected officials.

(((Gary)))&(((Dennis'friend)))) Thank you again for your personal experience regarding Dennis.

Whether this issue is right or wrong is one thing; but the fact is Dennis secretly wanted to take blood & live. That is what's wrong here - he was coerced into making a decision that would 'prove his faith was strong' to all the adult JW's around him. Poor guy, he didn't have a fighting chance. And now his friends, the world, has lost him.

Rest in peace, Dennis.

I do not subcribe to the idea that the JW is a cult or brainwashes people.The choice made by this young brave and conscientious man reflects on how he valued his religion. How he valued his relationship with his Creator for which his life he felt was indebted to. Reading off his Bible and the never failing promises that it contains he saw it fit that he exercises the decision that he made. Expessions made in support of Dennis are not in any way damage control. There is no damage to talk about in the first place. Religions world over notably those with operating on religious ala carte would find Dennis conviction out of their step. Faith is not about what favors your situation now but what you will standby in all weather conditions of your life. I have here in mind religions that will allow you to smoke,drink in excess, steal, engage in wayward sexual behavior and "the you name" it and say its fine bcause the body and mind was craving for it at that time...and later on queue for long confession ceremony to someone who is also doing the same things behind the scenes. I hope those not clear about faith will seek to take in the accurate knowledge. Those with Faith stand by Faith with integrity.Those without establish Dennis like allegiance.

The Watchtower religion "invented" the no blood transfusion dogma in 1945,thousands of men,women,children have perished in obedience.
Eventually,in 2007 and beyond the Watchtower will find "new light" from God and eventually repeal the blood ban.
This means that all those thousands of deaths were needless.
HELLO!! The hypocrite Watchtower DOES ALLOW blood and plays God with what “parts” can be taken.

Well said Daniel.

Ok, you Witnesses, give me the scriptural precedent for taking blood fractions.

Where does it say in the Bible you can take parts of blood? I would like to understand this 'accurate knowledge'.

I would have been a 14 yr old making the decision like Dennis, long ago. Then I grew up & in adulthood started reviewing my beliefs and re-studying JW history and came to realization that it is doctrine and interpretation of men. I am 61 yrs old now & a proud grandma.

I WOULD LIKE TO COMMEND DIANNA MINCIN FOR RAISING SUCH A WONDERFUL YOUNG MAN. THIS WAS NOT HER CHILD, YET SHE STEPPED IN TO RAISE HIM. BETTER YET, SHE HELPED SAVE HIS LIFE BY HELPING HIM TO LEARN THE TRUTH OF GODS WORD AND THEN TO MAKE HIS DECISION TO SERVE GOD. HE STOOD FAITHFUL. I AM SO PROUD OF HIM!! I HOPE TO SEE THIS FAITHFUL YOUNG MAN IN PARADISE. HE HAS SET A FINE EXAMPLE. I AM SURE THAT JEHOVAH GAVE HIM PEACE AND COMFORT AS HE TOOK HIS STAND FAITHFULLY. I AM ALSO SURE THAT JEHOVAH WILL GIVE HIS AUNT THE PEACE AND COMFORT THAT SHE WILL NEED AS SHE UNDERGOES THE BACKLASH FROM THOSE WHO DO NOT KNOW THE BIBLE, THOSE WHO DO NOT CARE WHAT THE BIBLE SAYS, THOSE WHO DO NOT UNDERSTAND THE BIBLE, AND THOSE APOSTATE INDIVIDUALS WHO ARE OBSESSED WITH SLANDERING JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES. TO THE AUNT:
CONTINUE TO "FIGHT THE FINE FIGHT OF THE FAITH, GET A FIRM HOLD ON THE EVERLASTING LIFE FOR WHICH YOU WERE CALLED AND YOU OFFERED THE FINE PUBLIC DECLARATION IN FRONT OF MANY WITNESSES"-1 TIMOTHY 6:12

On the contrary Rose, I do know what the Bible says, and so do many others and they all interpret it differently.

I ask my question to you Rose. The New World translation says in Acts to 'abstain' from blood. Jehovah's Witnesses say that scripture could not be any clearer. How does it allow for blood fractions then? I would like an answer?

Otherwise I shall have to conclude it is the Governing Body, not the Bible that has created this rule, and as such, they are taking the place of God in telling you what to do.

And printing your post in capitals does not make it any more forceful or right.

Me said:
"Let us all remember....we won't change the world on our keyboards."

Our keyboards give us an open channel to the world. We never know when something we write here could open someones eyes to the 'real truth'. This is why we forge on, and this is why Alex and s810 keep on with their fight. We always hope to reach even one persons heart, and get them to think on their own.

Pan and Gary, My heart goes out to you both and to any of Dennis's other friends here. I think I will stand up and contact my congressman, as I'm in Montana, which is so close to WA. I think MT needs to know what happened in our neighboring state. This was so close to home, and is a personal thing to me that it was such a senseless loss of a beautiful young man.

Those who've said 'Let it rest' and that Dennis is dead... I understand your letting go now. But there are those of us who can't let go because as we write here this is happening somewhere else too. There are other young people who are going to die because of the religion as well. There are other people, young and old who will choose not to receive blood, and their decision won't be based upon medical or personal reasons, but because of what they've been told by the religion, and their not wanting to be rejected by all those they know and love if they were to choose to accept the blood. Do they really have a choice in this case? No. Everyone they hold dear to themselves will turn their backs and shun them if they choose to take blood.

This is just so senseless that people die because of the 'peer pressure' of a religion.

Rose, Steve Kasambara, Brian, all you other JW's, I would also like an answer to Steve's question:

Why does Jehovah allow blood fractions? Can you show me that scripture?

How does the Governing Body know he allows blood fractions? Did he tell them?

Please, I would like to know.

Suzi said: But there are those of us who can't let go because as we write here this is happening somewhere else too. There are other young people who are going to die because of the religion as well. There are other people, young and old who will choose not to receive blood, and their decision won't be based upon medical or personal reasons, but because of what they've been told by the religion, and their not wanting to be rejected by all those they know and love if they were to choose to accept the blood. Do they really have a choice in this case? No. Everyone they hold dear to themselves will turn their backs and shun them if they choose to take blood.

This is just so senseless that people die because of the 'peer pressure' of a religion.

WELL SAID, Suzi. This is an important issue that does not stop with Dennis. It continues and we must fight for these children's right to live.

Gary, that is an excellent idea to contact your local congressman.Even though it won't help much, I will write him as well. Also on that list should be Judge Meyer, he should never be allowed to forget his execution order. And of course, King5 should be commended for putting up this forum.

Steve, excellent thoughts about asking for the scripture that allows blood fractions. I presume all the JW's following this thread are waiting for a slight change in the topic, so they can avoid the question. A quick scan through this debate will clearly point out that not a single one of them has answered one question posed. They just spew their bile rhetoric.

bob
OWEN
Any other Jehovah's Witnesses blogging after 7:30 pm on a Thursday night....

Aren't you supposed to be at a Kingdom Hall or book study at that time???

How can you be "encouraging" your brothers if you're not in attendance?

Let's see how long it is before the story of Dennis is mentioned in an Awake! article....Likely entitled "Young People Ask...How Can I Endure Persecution?"

Serving god? how is he serving god? by refusing to add a couple more years to his life? I want you to think about something rose. if you had a son younger than dennis say like 8 years old or younger, and they were dying of cancer, and could be given a procedure like a blood transfusion that could help them live longer, would you refuse to give it to them, even though they have only lived 8 years of their life? I would like to know.

I commend the decision this young man made. Without knowing the pain of this illness personally, how is anyone else a "reasonable" judge of his decision. I am not a Baptised JW, however I have appreciated their teaching (sharing) of beliefs. Some say the "old" testament is not to be followed since we receive Christ in the "new" testament...not my opinion. 5 yrs of further pain vs a life style choice. Mary was (? how old) when Christ was born; we no longer view the age as "adult" does not make it a fact for all.

Megan, Rose will say yes, that she would. However, Rose does not know how she would really feel if it were her child. I have friends who said No Blood for their newborn, but were secretly glad when a judge overruled that & forced blood on him. It saved his life and they are so glad he survived and they have their child that they love so dearly!

Rose will say yes, that she would refuse blood (because that is what a good, obedient JW is supposed to say), but if it does happen to her child, I guarantee that Rose will secretly hope a judge will overrule her so that her child can live and she can still look like she is being "faithful to Jehovah" (ie; obedient to JW dogma) to her JW congregation, elders & the Liason Committee. Huge pressure she'll be put under to make the 'right' decision not to save her child's life. She will have to rely on a judge to do what's right to save her child.

The more important question for the JW's to answer is:

WHERE DOES IT SHOW IN THE BIBLE THAT BLOOD FRACTIONS ARE OK TO TAKE?

Nowhere.

This shows that the Governing Body, NOT God or the Bible, is who makes the Jehovah's Witnesses rules.

What do the JW's think about the mockery that they brought about on this board of God's most sacred name? There is a reason his name was not used in the scriptures, and the original ten commandments clearly states "Thou shalt not make wrongful use of the name of thy God".

Also, please tell me what the difference is in ones religious conviction when they disallow blood and cause a death and another who slaps a bomb on his chest...all in the name of God? It's all martyrdom and is not a correct interpretation of God's sacred word (whichever book you use).

Life is a precious gift from God, a gift that 1/3 of hosts did not receive...it should be cherished and not thrown away needlessly.

Organ transplants, Vacinations, blood fractions? None of this has anything to do with the subject at hand. The issue here is the Decision Dennis had to make. Either to have a blood transfusion, and MAYBE save his present life for another few years, or to reject the blood and save his everlasting life in eternity.
Remember, God's word says Abstain from Blood. Dennis made the correct choice.
Let's stick to the subject here. Why do all you JW bashers want to use this forum to further your interests instead of commending this youngster for his taking a stand for what he believed in? I believe he was right. What ever you hatemongers have to say does not change what God expects of us.
If we choose not to believe in what God says will not change the outcome for us. What He says will be.

I am not glad this young man passed, but this happened for a reason. I think this DEFINATELY needs to be brought up with some "powers that be" that can keep this from happening again. I'm an ex JW and i was disfellowshipped because i CHOSE to divorce an abusive woman!! how wrong was that of me??????

Way to avoid the question again bob! Why is it when JW's have a difficult question they try and change the subject. Can you answer the question "WHERE DOES IT SHOW IN THE BIBLE THAT BLOOD FRACTIONS ARE OK TO TAKE?" Time and again JW's say they follow the Bible. So this should be an easy question. If not please stop spewing your tainted doctrine!!!!

Bob,

Where does God tell you in the Bible that it's ok to take blood fractions?

I've got my Bible ready...just show me the scripture.

I wish to extend my deepest sympathies to Dennis' friends and loving family. This is a tragic loss!
As an ex-JW, my opposition to their teachings stems from a desire to STOP this kind of tragedy from happening again and again.
Every time one of their predictions proves false, they fall back on the 'new light' fallacy to justify the fact that they have been and continue to be false prophets.
I have no problem with rank and file witnesses, as I believe them to be grossly misguided by a CORPORATION which intends to keep its membership and income intact.

The reason people like Bob and the other JW's can't answer a question is due to the high level of brainwashing that they have been abused with. It's a common JW tactic that instead of answering a question, they deflect it. He doesn't answer because he can't. If Bob would only take a look at the questions posed to him, he would start using critical thinking.

Alex, once again you are correct. They didn't last night and they never will just plain answer the question ever. Can any of you JW's JUST ANSWER THE BLOODY (no pun intended) QUESTION??!!

I think we are all just beating a dead horse.

Evil Knieval just died from hepatitis C that he contracted from a blood transfusion. How about having a conversation about the tens of thousands of people who have died from bad blood, instead of one who decided it just wasn't good enough for him.

Canada: "The Canadian Red Cross is being sued for distributing contaminated blood in the 1980s to thousands of people. The diseases people contracted from receiving the blood in transfusions included hepatitis C and HIV, from which they are now dying."

California - "Health care officials are focusing on a single pint of blood to determine what went wrong in the death of an 86-year-old Santa Rosa woman Sunday following a transfusion at Santa Rosa Memorial Hospital."

About one in every 500,000 people who receive a blood tranfusion dies as a result, according to a 1997 paper in the American Journal of Clinical Pathology.

I support Dennis's desicion. I am NOT a JW, but I will not have a blood transfusion, no matter the circumstances. I also will not allow my children to have one. The medical community has made vast leaps in bloodless surgeries and procedures. Yet many are scared of these as they are not the norm. Not that long ago lapriscopy was not the norm, yet look at how that has benefited mankind.

Oh Jon you are so far off of this point. Please go back and read what this is really about and then join the rest of us. If you would like an answer to your query how about "You have a better chance at life if you accept this. If you do not, you will die!" How's that?

Jon, Where in the Bible does it say you can accept blood fractions?

Quit trying to change the subject.

Interesting that no JW will touch this question!

Stacy, I am trying to help. I too am curious and have had to put up with them avoiding the questions we pose. I have already asked them TO JUST ANSWER THE QUESTION!!! They never do, they always go off on some worthless tangent off the subject. I am sorry you have to suffer with me.

A few potential dangers of bad blood:

HIV
Hepatitis
Malaria
Syphilis
Typhoid fever
Chaga's disease

The US supposedly has the highest quality screening on the planet, and yet people still contract these and die every year. I wonder what it's like in developing countries!
___________

"HealthScout
Ed Edelson
TUESDAY, Sept. 24 (HealthScoutNews) -- Blood transfusions appear to increase the risk of death for some critically ill patients, a new study finds.
And while a Canadian expert says the results of the study are far from definitive, he says that he and many other Canadian doctors have reduced the number of transfusions they give in such cases, based on the results of a carefully controlled study he reported several years ago.

The study comes as the U.S. government investigates several cases of people who have received the West Nile virus through blood transfusions. At least one has died."

_____________

The Food and Drug Administration has told a federal court that the
American Red Cross is ``jeopardizing the public health'' through its
``chronic inattention and callous indifference'' in collecting and
processing blood.

In the latest legal filing in a decade-long court case, the FDA asked
the court to hold the Red Cross in contempt and to force speedy compliance
with a 1993 consent decree intended to remedy the ongoing problems.

In light of newly discovered violations, the FDA said, the Red Cross
should not be allowed ``another decade - or even another year - to stroll
towards compliance.''

____________

SR woman dies after transfusion
Investigators suspect death tied to pint of blood administered before death; supply called 'safe'
Wednesday, August 25, 2004

By CAROL BENFELL
THE PRESS DEMOCRAT

Health care officials are focusing on a single pint of blood to determine what went wrong in the death of an 86-year-old Santa Rosa woman Sunday following a transfusion at Santa Rosa Memorial Hospital.

____________

"Female Plasma May Be Linked To Mysterious Lung Condition
Health officials point to risks associated with transfusions ...
Ask about blood safety and most people think of HIV or other diseases... Today the top threat is TRALI, or “transfusion-related acute lung injury,” in which transfusions trigger reactions that fill patients' lungs with fluid, leaving them gasping for air... "

___________

"During the past 15 years, it has become clear that new agents and new strains of existing agents continue to emerge worldwide as protagonists of infectious disease. These emerging agents pose threats not only to the general human population but also to recipients of blood transfusions. Indeed, the modern era of blood safety perhaps began with the recognition of HIV as an emerging agent transmissible by blood transfusion. Today, emerging infectious agents that pose a threat to the blood supply are not limited to viruses, but include bacterial, protozoan, and prion agents. Preventing the transmission of these new agents by blood transfusion is often problematic, as the available tools may be inadequate. It is certain, however, that new agents will continue to emerge as threats to blood safety and these agents are likely to require novel approaches to prevent their transmission."

____________

So funny how x-JWs tend to use matters of DOCTRINE to prove their points, something they no longer even believe in themselves.

Sound good enough for your kids?

-Blood acquisition costs have more than doubled in the past few years and will continue to rise as the blood supply struggles to meet the increasing demand.

-Each transfusion causes a stepwise increase in serious complications including postoperative infection rates, ventilator-acquired pneumonia, central line sepsis, ICU and hospital length of stay, as well as mortality rates.

-Transfusion costs exceed blood acquisition costs by four times or greater when accounting for labor, supplies, administration and adverse events.

-Most physicians who order blood products lack formal training in transfusion therapy, and many are unaware of current transfusion guidelines.

-Oversight of blood utilization is lacking as witnessed by wide variation in transfusion practices between institutions and among physicians at the same institution.

-From a medical-legal standpoint, the financial liability of improper informed consent, inappropriate transfusions and transfusion errors can can be substantial.

So let me get this straight Jon. 1 out of 500,000 people who receive blood will die because of it. Are you for the use of blood or against it? What a riot you are. Thank you for showing the facts about how viable blood is. I owe you one.

STACY, CHARITY, ALEX, S810:

There is no scripture that says it is ok to take blood fractions.
It has been learned thru science in recent years that blood fractions pass thru the placenta in an unborn child to the child and to the mother from the child.
This has caused some to wonder why it is not ok to take blood fractions.
Since we dont know the answer to this question, it has been made a matter of conscience for an individual to make their own informed decision.
This does not change the fact that God has stated that we should abstain from blood. So ones who have to make this decision, have to weigh all the facts and make their own decision based on their Bible trained conscience.
Since there is no clear cut answer to the question of the use of fractions, one choosing to take fractions are not disciplined if they choose to do so.
My personal choice is not to take blood in any form, since blood was to be poured out on the ground and covered with dust when it left the body. Then how is it that there would be blood to fractionate?

EX-JW:
Not all JWs meet on Thursday nite.

Banked Blood Can Do More Harm than Good"

Article date: 10/09/07

"Two US studies suggest that almost as soon as it has been donated, banked human blood loses the vital ability to transfer oxygen to body tissue that desperately needs it. The researchers say that for the majority of patients, blood transfusions with banked human blood could do more harm than good.

The studies are to be published in the early online issue of the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences (PNAS) and are the work of two teams of scientists at Duke University Medical Center in Durham, North Carolina.

Almost immediately after it leaves the body, human blood begins to lose an essential gas, nitric oxide which is believed to be crucial to the delivery of oxygen to tissues because it keeps the tiny blood vessels inside the tissue mass open. The researchers also believe that it helps red blood cells to stay flexible so they can easily fit into the narrow constraints of the blood vessels."

To answer THE question, the Bible does not say it’s okay to take blood fractions, nor does it refer to blood fractions. Who’s to say if a fraction of blood is still blood? I don’t know. Is water still water after you break it down? The Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society does not dictate to its membership nor does it want to. It gives clear guidelines to its followers and it’s up to them to make their choice. So if you don’t want to follow those guidelines, then why would you be a member of that organization? Each baptized Jehovah’s Witnesses carries a “Blood Card”. On that card, the person makes the decision as to if they will take blood fractions or not. The WTBTS does not make that decision for them, nor will it. Ask any JW and they will show you their card and where they made their choice. Compare a few and you’ll find that they differ. I know one husband and wife who have two different choices on their Blood Card. The blood issue has changed over the years, because the field of medicine has changed. To keep up with new technologies, the WTBTS had to change they way they look at things too. They say it is wrong to take whole blood, but when it comes to these new technologies of blood fractions, it is up to the personal decision of each JW to make that choice.

The point most of you are missing is that Dennis has the right to make a decision about his own life and relationship with God. If you do not believe in God, than any decision he makes would not make sense to you because his decision is based on his beliefs. How can you make such comments about this young man’s beliefs and his choice that as an American he had every right to make? In a world that is full of godless people, it is nice to find that some people are still god fearing to the point of death. It doesn’t matter if he is wrong or right, his faith in God will no doubt be rewarded. If only everyone had that kind of faith in God, the world would be a better place.

Taking blood would have not saved his life, it would have only prolonged it a few years at best. At least he died with his integrity. He was a much greater person than those of you who badmouth his beliefs and desires. The rest of you, get some integrity of your own.

"Canadian hospital warns parents of dangers in blood supply

TORONTO (May 5, 1996 10:05 p.m. EDT) -- In the latest blow to Canada's blood supply, a top hospital has warned hundreds of parents that their children may have received blood products infected with a lethal brain prion.

Officials at Toronto's Hospital for Sick Children say 525 families have received letters about the incident, in which a man who donated blood died last year of Creutzfeldt-Jakob disease -- the human equivalent of mad cow disease.
_______________

(MONEY Magazine) – Nearly a decade after the U.S. began testing donor blood for AIDS, people continue to contract the disease through transfusions. The reasons for this deplorable state of affairs range from human error to flawed medical tests, from legal loopholes to plain old double-talk that obscures this fatal fact: Concerns about costs often outweigh those about human life. For example, antigen testing, a procedure that can help eliminate a main cause of contamination, has not been judged cost-effective enough by the U.S. Food and Drug Administration to be made mandatory. The test, which could have saved Catalina Grigley (shown at left) from AIDS, would increase by approximately $3 the $50-to-$120 price for a unit of blood that can service three patients. How many Americans has donor blood infected with HIV, the virus that causes AIDS? What are the odds of acquiring AIDS from transfusions today? The answer to both questions is that, because of bureaucratic laxity in the $1.75 billion blood industry, no one knows for sure. But perhaps a more critical question is: Have American Red Cross and other blood banking leaders and their regulators at the FDA done all that they can do to reduce the odds of acquiring HIV through blood products? A comprehensive investigation by MONEY concludes that the answer is no. Says Ross D. Eckert, who from 1987 through 1993 was the first voting representative of consumer interests on the FDA's Blood Products Advisory Committee: "The process through which the FDA gets information to make important safety decisions is heavily skewed in favor of the blood banking industry over consumers." Consider, for example, the lack of progress in one main area of concern, human error at blood-donor facilities run by the Red Cross and other organizations. The problems had become so severe that a year ago the FDA filed suit in U.S. District Court to force the Red Cross to correct safety violations at centers across the country. This month the FDA is scheduled to review reports of recent inspections of the centers. Copies of earlier reports that have been obtained by Money show, among other violations: -- At the Huntington, W.Va. Red Cross center between July 1985 and November 1991, 46 people were allowed to donate blood after testing positive on HIV screening tests. -- At the Wadley Blood Bank in Dallas beginning in August 1990, at least two regular donors tested positive repeatedly for HIV-2, another less common strain of the AIDS virus, yet were not barred from giving blood until December 1991. -- In San Francisco, a July 1992 inspection of Irwin Memorial Blood Centers concluded that "it cannot be determined from existing records that viral marker testing (for HIV and hepatitis) was performed according to test kit and equipment instructions." Moreover, blood was accepted from people who had tested positive for HIV and hepatitis, and distributed for transfusion. -- In Portland, Ore. an August 1993 inspection of the Red Cross center revealed that 46% of the lab staff performing HIV testing "were not aware" of -- a critical test step." A March 1992 inspection of the same facility had uncovered an inadequate review of testing results, leading to the release of incompletely tested or untested blood products.

Right on John!
You know, it is really difficult to have a battle of wits with unarmed persons.

Well said John and Bob. Thanks for your beautiful comments. Unlike some of the people here who have no integrity or pride at all.

John, How can you predict if he would have died in a few years? I know more than a few young people who have had Leukemia, the transfusions and treatment and they are all still alive today. If you actually read some of the previous entries from the people who know Dennis, unlike you who have no idea who he is, you would find out how much we cared for him and wanted him to live. How we were called Satan's helpers because we were not JW's. Do you agree with that? If so, you are one twisted individual.

Jon, you said, and I quote
To keep up with new technologies, the WTBTS had to change they way they look at things too.
There's the rub for me. As a JW, you believe that the society channels God's messages. So why would God give Rutherford bad advice? Is God the liar, or was it just one too many martini's for the old Judge? Either way, you are admitting that the society can be just as wrong on a subject as any other human. Therefore, they are fallible. Good for you,for bringing it up.

John, Bob, Jessica and the rest of you JW's will never get it. I commend you for defending your cult but I still feel we are beating a dead horse. As stated in earlier entries the JW's constantly change their religious laws, they are hypocrites like most religions are, they make false predictions which only hurt people and their lives and so on. Someday you will find you were all wrong. Also, can you tell me again which day this time you have predicted the end of the world again and give me your email so I can contact you the next day to hear why it wasn't the end again!!!???

Here we go again Alex where when the true good points are made the Johns, Jessica's and Bob's just disappear or will come back with something totally of the point. Ho hum.

Did I say I was a JW? How do you know I don't know Dennis? You are quick to judge. The problem is Dennis scares you. You have no faith nor any hope in your future. Dennis did have faith and he had hope and that makes you mad, because you don't have any. All you have is to badmouth people and their beliefs which you don't know anything about. And don't tell me that you know it because you are an ex JW. If you don't live it, you don't know it.

As far as JW's changing, it is because they are advancing forward, unlike those of you who have fallen back and are too full of pride and fear to take a step forward. Can't you just say that you are proud of Dennis for the fight that he did make and for standing up for his beliefs, even if you don't agree with him? I know Dennis would never have said those things about you and your beliefs. He would have supported you in your times of troubles. Too bad you can't do the same for him.

Found this on the Watchtower CD my wife loaded on our laptop:

From the 6/15/04 Watchtower:

Questions from Readers: Do Jehovah's Witnesses accept minor fractions of blood?

"The fundamental answer is that Jehovah’s Witnesses do not accept blood. We firmly believe that God’s law on blood is not open to reform to fit shifting opinions. Still, new issues arise because blood can now be processed into four primary components and fractions of those components...However, since blood can be processed beyond those primary components, questions arise about fractions derived from the primary blood components. How are such fractions used, and what should a Christian consider when deciding on them?...Some would refuse anything derived from blood (even fractions intended to provide temporary passive immunity)...Hence, some Christians reject such products, just as they reject transfusions of whole blood or of its four primary components. Their sincere, conscientious stand should be respected...Other Christians decide differently. They too refuse transfusions of whole blood, red cells, white cells, platelets, or plasma. Yet, they might allow a physician to treat them with a fraction extracted from the primary components...Beyond that, when it comes to fractions of any of the primary components, each Christian, after careful and prayerful meditation, must conscientiously decide for himself."

A long article, so for purposes of space I included only the succint points. Bottom line, there isn't a scripture that states it is okay or not okay to use blood fractions. And rather than forcing or coercing, the choice is left up to each individual.

All of you ex-JWs here claim that you are "free", yet you demand a reason as to why the JWs believe the way they do (you should already know) so you can argue and "expose". The fact is that you really aren't free, you are as big a loser as divorcee who constantly rags about her ex-husband. If you were really free you would get on with your new life and new friends, not live in the shadow of the Watchtower. Maybe that's the problem, you don't have a new life or new friends. May I suggest getting out and finding new friends and interests. I'm going out tonight with some co-workers for pizza and beer to have a good time and tie one on. None of us will worry about what and why JWs believe the way they do. Try it, you might find there are better things to do than spend you time whining about your former religion, which you apparently have a hard time letting go of.

So I wasted some time doing a little research for you to answer your moaning of wanting an answer. So answer this question for me.

1. Why are you blaming JWs for Dennis's decision and not the judge for not forcing transfusions, or the doctors for not going against his wishes and administrating them anyway, or his drug addicted parents for giving him up to his JW aunt instead of raising him themselves, or even Dennis for not standing up and taking a blood transfusion that he really wanted as those of you claiming to be his friends say was his real wish, or his "friends" here who are complaining about his choice but could have opened up there homes to him and taken him in? It seems there are plenty of players in this scenerio that can share in the blame, but you are using this only to attack the JWs and what they believe.

All my life I have said no to the JWs. (My dad was raised by my JW grandmother, he said no, I said no, but she managed to get my aunt and later my wife to become one) Why can't you just say no and get on with your life?

And Gary Curry, great idea to get some legislation to force your beliefs on other people. I'll say one thing about JWs, they don't force anyone to do anything (even those who commit "wrongs" like fornication, drug or alcohol abuse, or even blood transfusions and are ex-communicated are allowed to return to the congregation later if they repent) and would never support legislation to force their beliefs on other people. So kudos to you for wanting to strip people of their rights to believe and practice what they want. It's nice to know that Bush isn't alone in trying to take freedoms away from Americans.

Time to go party, it's Friday night. I'll let you losers wallow in your self pity.

S810, The treatment made them better, not the transfusions. The transfusion is only a temporary thing. The treatment for Dennis was not working, he was dying. The only option left for the doctors was to prolong his life on a temporary basis in hope that the treatment for the cancer would begin to work. I have seen many people die from the cure, long before the disease in their fight to live. Dennis was ready to go, he didn’t have it in him to fight anymore. And he wanted to die faithful to HIS God. Just give him that.

Kudos Owen.

S810:
We've answered your questions, you keep changing the subject.
The real point here is that Blood Transfusions are wrong in the eyes of God, Jehovah.
As far as changing beliefs goes, it is necessary to change when we gain more knowledge. Otherwise we would still believe the world is flat, that God is three persons in one, or that there is a hot burning hell that God uses to torture people forever, or that we should go to War, or that we should believe in a rapture, or that we should celebrate Santa, the Easter Bunny, etc. etc.
When new facts come to light we have to learn from them and adjust our thinking. Otherwise we would be like all the religions of this world that stick to thier false beliefs, and refuse to change even when they are shown the facts.
This being said, I really think it is time for me and any other JW's on here to get off, and let all the unbelievers debate with themselves, since all they want to do is to try and subvert our faith.

I am proud of Dennis.

I am proud of him to exactly the same degree I am proud of Marwan Abu Ubeida, a Sunni Muslim suicide bomber-in-training who plans on killing as many Americans as he can, in Iraq (http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article9327.htm). He too, is praised by members of his religious group for his willingness to die for God, he too is promised an eternal reward in Paradise. The two major differences are: Marwan is 20, he is of an age to make that decision; if Paradise exists, Marwan is going to have a lot more fun with his 72 virgins than Dennis will have living a life of celibacy, petting tigers and snakes.

For that matter, my pride for Dennis perhaps more closely mirrors my pride for the 20,000 or so (yes, I know the story is greatly exaggerated) children who participated in the AD 1212 Children's Crusade, and were massacred, died of hunger and exposure, or sold into slavery. For their God. Perhaps we need to admire their faith a little more? Maybe tell the story more often in Sunday School, or should I say Jesus Camp? We might succeed in forming home-grown American Christian suicide bombers to send over to the Middle East, that will certainly impress the heathen... or give a fine witness to Jehovah?

Since so many praise Dennis for wanting to have a relationship with God, perhaps you could tell me at what age a young man or woman is able to have such a relationship? Because JWs are also well-known for kidnapping infants out of hospitals to prevent them from receiving court-ordered blood transfusions. Is a 2 day-old child able to have this relationship with God, are they called upon to take a stand unto death for Jehovah? Or is it their PARENTS who are expected to take that stand, under pain of expulsion and shunning if they do not forcibly remove their child from a hospital and allow it to die?

Let me first answer Owens question. I blame the JW's because their stand on blood is nothing more then a good test to see how loyal their drones are. I don't blame Dennis, because he was brainwashed by the cult. I do blame Judge Meyer. He was ignorant on the subject, and blood is on his hands also. And Bob, you are right that it's good for the society to change, and rapidly. I'd hate to see you still buying "miricle wheat" or having a fear of aluminum. I don't need to subvert your faith. A look back at your publications through the years should do that.

WOW! You compare Dennis to a terrorist!! That is it, this is over. You people are of the Devil.
Good bye.

the devil!? hold on a second! WE AREN"T THE DEVIL!!!!! you have no right to say that. we think that people who convinced him that blood transfusions were bad and praising him when he died for his god, were wrong for doing that. so don't go around bad mouthing us! ;(

Dennis did not wake up one morning and decide to let himself die for the sake of his God, any more than Marwan woke up one morning and thought "It's a fine day, I'm going to blow myself up!"

Both of these actions are the fruit of the teachings of a particular form of religious extremism. The Jehovah's Witnesses leadership is every bit as responsible for Dennis' death as are the Sunni clerics who sent Marwan to his death. These are the people who sit on the sidelines, write apologetics (much like yours) that glorify martyrdom, and actively recruit young people by promising them Paradise if only they will renounce their present life for the sake of their God, or should I say their God's Earthly representatives. And you ask us to be proud of Dennis for his faith? I am saddened that he never reached an age that he might have had the maturity and opportunity to research the religion of his aunt, to critically compare the Jehovah's Witness movement to other Apocalyptic movements of the Adventist tradition, or better yet, mainstream reformed Christian theology or liberation theology, he never got a chance to dream of being a doctor or a veterinarian, of travelling to Africa to help feed starving people and prevent treatable diseases, never had a chance to dream of being an architect and building beautiful things... His entire life consisted of preaching to all who would listen that God hates this world so much that He will (soon!) kill all non-JWs and generally rain down fire and destruction upon the Earth. Then, he was coerced to give his life for his aunt's cult, so that he could be used as an example of faithfulness (much as you are doing) for others to follow. I am sad because this boy was robbed of his childhood, and then his very life, by people who profit from such theft. I am sad because you are even now glorifying his death, misrepresenting the medicine that might have saved him, talking yourself into a pretzel to avoid a lawsuit, and calling your critics Devils. And a fine Christian example you are setting.

Good one John, scream like a child. Run away from your fears. Don't speak to us, because you might be possessed as well. What a load of complete and utter crap. I knew the second I saw Kingsmeg's post, that one of you guys would lose it. I hope you're not shaking in the shower screaming, unclean, unclean!

I won't speak for the rest of the so called apostates here, as we may or may not be of the same mind on this. But personally, I'm not here to save you, or Owen, or the other JW's that come here. My belief is that you guys are too far gone. You do not own your own mind. Sadly, it belongs to the biggest printing press in existance. The reason I'm here is for the public people that always thought the JW's were a little quirky, but never gave them a second thought.

What I don't want to see, and will fight at all costs, is some poor soul that is in a bad spot at the wrong time, and all of a sudden some cult follower like you is knocking on their door. JW's feed on the weak. Dennis had a very rough childhood, I would assume there was zero stability in his life, until he moved in with that brainwashed aunt of his. If there is a devil here, he would reside in the enviornment that Dennis resided in for the last 4 years. It cost that child his life. And the devil in this scenario might be you. That's right, you, one of the few who took pride in his death. Remember this, his blood is on you as well.

JON said, on 11/30/07 @ 2:24 PM: "So funny how x-JWs tend to use matters of DOCTRINE to prove their points, something they no longer even believe in themselves."

I use examples of the changes in WATCHTOWER doctrine in an effort to encourage you to think. These doctrines change at an astonishing rate and JWs are told they MUST accept the revised teachings as "new light." Vaccination was OK before Rutherford outlawed it, then it was bad, and now it is OK again. The pattern of the "organ transplant doctrine" is similar: good, bad, good. Either Jehovah is manic/depressive or these teachings are simply the control techniques of a CULT.

Do yourselves a favor, rent a copy of the movie "Ticket To Heaven," which is based on the experiences of a member of the Moonie CULT. See if anything that happens in that CULT seems oddly familiar.

JWs do not think for themselves like the ancient Bereans; they accept whatever The WATCHTOWER tells them. JWs stopped getting vaccinated when Rutherford told them to stop. How many died? How many argued that vaccinations were sometimes dangerous? JWs started to take vaccinations again after Rutherford died and Knorr told them vaccinations were OK. Then Knorr told them that organ transplants were cannibalism, and the JWs stopped getting organ transplants. How many died? How many argued that organ transplants were sometimes dangerous or caused changes in a persons psyche? In 1980 Knorr changed his mind because too many of his OLD friends were having health problems and needed medical intervention.

Knorr told JWs in 1945 that a transfusion was the same as eating blood, and JWs fell in line with the now doctrine. N H Knorr and his "prophet" Fred Franz are both now dead, and the new GB is trying to "mainstream" the JWs to gain political acceptance.

Mark your calendars - truly today I am telling you that the blood doctrine WILL change.

Jesus told his followers to be prepared to give a defense to anyone who asks, but you JWs prefer to run and hide. Either defend your precious truths or reject these doctines of men. Don't wimp out.

Very good post Nathan. I applaud you on many aspects of it. I want to expand on one comment though, and I quote you

Mark your calendars - truly today I am telling you that the blood doctrine WILL change.

That is correct. We must remember that the JW's are trying to change it as we speak. Their lawyers are working day and night to figure out a way to allow blood and not face a class action suit. I would like to think those lawyers are in hell right now, pardon the pun. That's because the JW's will lose every penny they own at some point soon, and the end still won't be here. The doomsday cult who cried wolf.

Sorry I am behind my commute made me miss most of the bullshit. Luckily Alex is still here holding on to the truth.
Okay #1: John are you JW yes or no? Do you personally know Dennis Yes or no? When did I say I was an Ex Jw? I am not, never was and never will be because I think for myself, don't have low esteem and am not ignorant. Because I did know Dennis, unlike you, I am proud of him and that is why I fight for him. Why do you think he called me dad???? Can any of you say that? Did you know him that well? Because of my respect for him and our relationship HE chose to call me dad. He knew I understood him! There I said it! Yes, some of you may figure out who I am but I do not care anymore! Alex is right, listen to him! He has had first hand accounts! We are not brainwashed as you all are!!! John, you idiot! If they had been able to transfuse and start treatment earlier the chance of survival was 70%!!! Wake up!!!! You Owen and others spewing your JW crap did not know him, I did!!! We talked, did you ever talk to Dennis? YES OR NO???!!! NO!!! I know the truth you do not!! You all have quit here because you are wrong!! It is not about religion, it is about a boy, life and how he was robbed of it. Alex, keep going, please help!!!

Thank you to Dennis'Friend for sharing with us the heart-breaking truth revealed in the private conversation of Dennis with the non-JW adult.
"there are more people who want me to support my faith" --It is so terribly sad that this young man was made to believe that there were more people in his life who only wanted for him to be a martyr for their beliefs, to the extent that he was convinced into letting himself die. I can tell from the heart-felt posts of Dennis' non-JW friends who were tragically kept away from him in his time of need and called 'satan' by members of the JW organization, that this was not the case. If only this child had been allowed to be surrounded by love and those who wanted him to live, instead of isolated in a cocoon of dogma and fanaticism, perhaps the outcome would have been different. It's very sad that the judge lacked the insight to see the situation for what it was.

Trust me S810, I'm right beside you, and I'll never let these idiots win. I'm here for the long haul.

Midnight, why are you one of us who just comes in and gets it right away and the rest of these idiots do not??? Thank you for being an educated, free thinker who is not blinded by ignorance.

Alex, you are the reason I keep fighting, thank you the most!!

S810, I do know you now. I am sorry I cannot fight as hard as you. I am distraught by Dennis' murder too much. Thank you all (Alex, Megan, Gary,Midnight) and the many others who fight when I cannot. Thank you, thank you, thank you.

Thanks for the great comments S810. I'm flattered. I'm also in awe of how much time you've taken here. Midnight, nice to meet you. How did you get such a name? You better not be a smurf!!!!!

Get some rest Pan, we'll be here when you wake.

S810, get some rest as well.

I'll try to fight right along side with you as best I can. although I'm not really a great at arguing. but what I do know is that Pan is hurt at the death of Dennis. I still can't belive they didn't let Pan see him. that's horrible. and shold not be tollerated. ;(

WoW PAN! JW'S dont call people Devils!

Didnt mean to use the wrong name! Sorry pan! I met John LOL

to all the non JW's. Just becareful, JW's are Crazy! Trust me I was one!

your welcome pan. I know if I were in your position I would fight my hardest too.

To the posters here who actually knew Dennis, I would just like to say that I did not mean in any way to imply that Dennis was a terrorist, and I understand how my rhetoric might have been seen as 'over the top', and I sincerely apologize if you were offended. No, I did not know Dennis, I have no grounds other than my personal experience with the Jehovah's Witness movement from which to make my claims. However, I have spent some time researching this question in an academic setting, and I am deeply committed to stopping the deaths of innocents. I do not advocate against adults having the freedom to refuse a medical treatment (to my knowledge, only France has taken that stand by legally recognizing that JWs who refuse blood are not making an informed decision).

I have only compassion for children of JWs and other similar cults who grow up wanting desperately, above all else, to be good... to be good children, good students, good persons, and because of how they are raised, good cult members. It takes years for these kids to widen their horizons enough to understand that being a JW is not necessary or sufficient to make a person 'good', and to overcome the cult's indoctrination process which most often begins at birth. I have no doubt that Dennis was a good kid, that he wanted to do what is right. While I do not personally believe in Heaven or Paradise, I can and do hope that Dennis' life was not in vain, and I know he has touched many people's hearts.

May he rest in peace. I wish I could also say "may he be the last child to die for the Watchtower", but I know we have a lot more work to do before we can voice that hope.

Rose, did you happen to read todays Skagit Valley Herald? YOUR HERO Dianna was in it. She must be a great person to deny her own mother any contact with her grandson after he made his decision to stop treatment. I wonder if Dianna would make the same decision if it was her own child and not just her nephew? YOUR HERO Dianna screamed, yelled, intimidated and belittled my 13yr old daughter in the halls of Childrens Hospital as she stood there with gifts in hand just wanting to visit her friend. She was sent away being called "of satan" because she is not a believer and posed a threat to Dianna's control. If my wife or myself had been present the out come would have been different. We don't need anymore heros like her.

Alex, I need to correct you on something here. You posted that the WBTS will lose their money soon. What you and other may not know is the depth and wealth of this God forsaken Cult. Their real estate holding in Brooklyn alone is staggering. Now add in their holdings world wide. This is not a ligitimate religion it is one of the richest corporations on the planet.
Ok, I am sure that there will be dubs here that will label myself and others as mere hate mongers and apostates. But just as you dubs feel the need to always make a good witness to Jehovah, there far more of us that feel the legitimate need to educate JWs and others that are trapped in this cult and to others so that they are not sucked into this mindless black hole. Many of are here to at least try and save any future "dennis" from a senseless death. I challenge you faithful followers of this religion to do some basic research that is out there and well documented. Google the early history of Pastor Russell, learn how he took the teaching of the Seventh Day Adventists regarding 1914, learn about his supposed worldwide crusades, that never happened, learn about his conning the public with his bogus sales of "Miracle wheat". Now move on to Judge Rutherford, about his documented false prophesies and time lines for Jehovahs day of reconing. How about a Google for 4440 Braeburn Rd. in San Diego. THis was the mansion that he built for the return of the biblical princes to earth. The mansion still stands today, he had named it Beth Sarim. Run that address on Google Earth and you will actually see the property still in tact. Oh and don't forget about Beth Shan, that was a very large property that was built next to Beth Sarim to house the upper elite of the group when the destruction started, it was equipped with hidden underground concrete enforced bunker. The masses would have no protection but Rutherfords drunken butt would be ok.
Your history is so bizarre I doubt hollywood could do it justice.
You are members of a Cult that is based on a REAL FEAR of God, and not the fear that is related to love and respect for Jehovah. The Jehovah's Witness are controlled with fear on all levels. How many of you will admit to the story that once ran through every Kingdom Hall on the Planet, the one about the demonized Smurf doll that suddenly stood up and cursed the Kingdom Hall and walked out through the front door....like I said Hollywood couldn't have out done this.
You state that we are just hate mongers, no there are many of us that have lost loved onces to this senseless Cult. I watched my sister die while in a coma as my parents and her husband barred a life saving transfusion. Her case was not like Dennis, she lost a massive amount of blood due to an accident in 1970 and she could have been saved. I watched my parents glow with pride as those around them praised them for their stand. To this day I still get that sick feeling in the pit of my stomach when I think about it.
You may think that we hate you, and I can assure you that we don't, we just hate the vile corporation that would sentence you to senseless death.
What you had better get used to is this type of response each and every time someone dies for no reason.

Thank you King 5 for allowing this site for us to post our feelings and thoughts. Kudos to Alex who seems to have an excellant knowledge of the real truth. Dennis' Friend whom I know personally, is not real religous (other than the "basics") has spent hours upon hours researching the JW "cult" religion trying to understand the choices made for Dennis by Dianna. All the information she read confussed her even more as to how people could be so "STUPID" to believe this crap. Alex is there an organization out there that helps protect JW children from their parents and gaurdians? If not maybe it's time to start one!!!!

There isn't an organization in place yet that helps with this particular issue. But you're right, one should be started. Right now, this is the most effective way to get the message across. I also want to expess my gratitude to King5 for allowing this to happen. We all accomplished far more than I had hoped. This was a clear victory that shows how ludicrus the JW doctrine is. I think alot of people have been informed, and can now make better decisions when dealing with the JW's.

For Gary, and all of Dennis' friends. There are alot of ExJW sites out there. The members will always try to help you with answers on the JW's. Feel free to ask away. I also wanted to say thanks to Elton, who made me aware of this site.

After all I heard from the JW's posts on this blog regarding Dennis' ability to choose and how we should respect and honor that I ask all JW's this question. Did Dennis get to choose to see his friend Morgan Curry? What if Dennis wanted to see Morgan but instead she was being attacked by his brainwashed aunt out in the hall as Mr. Curry pointed out? Would you JW's have honored his choice to let him see his good friend??? Yes or no? Alex, here we go again with a simple question where I expect either no answer or one on a subject that has nothing to do with my question. Mr. Curry I am very sorry. Your daughter is one of the most wonderful people I know and does not deserve that sort of treatment from anyone for anything! On the contrary if you believe in god then she would be an angel. My thouhgts are always with you and your family and Dennis.

S810, I don't much expect an appearance from any more JW's. I could be wrong, but judging by the time since this started, I'm pretty sure the head office has come down hard on any believers visiting here. The internet is one of the biggest fears of the head honcho's, and they have spies who look for this kind of stuff to report back to bethel. By now, strong action has probably taken place, and if it hasen't, it very soon will. But in answer to your question, there was no way any of you were going to see Dennis, especially if the elders thought he might be wavering.

S810, thank you for the compliment. Also, you bring up an excellent question...why wasn't Dennis allowed to choose whether or not to receive visits from his friends? Old enough to choose life or death, but not whether or not to be visited in the hospital and by whom? Those surrounding him were only willing to allow him to "choose for himself" as long as he was making the choice they wanted him to. In a matter where he would have chosen contrary to their wishes, he was denied the opportunity. Hypocritical and sad.
Alex, nice to meet you too. ;-)
Gary, I'm so sorry that your daughter was treated so horribly by Dennis' aunt and the others, and that she was not allowed to see her friend- there is no excuse for how she was treated. I'm sure Dennis really could have used a visit from her at that moment, instead of being surrounded only by those who would accept nothing less than his martyrdom to their "cause". Please extend my condolences to Morgan on the loss of her dear friend Dennis.

Alex you may be right. If this is the last and the JW's have finally been warded off I leave this to them, to Dennis and to us all.

I honor the place in you
in which the entire Universe dwells,

I honor the place in you
which is of Love, of Truth, of Light and of Peace,

When you are in that place in you,
and I am in that place in me,
we are One.

It has been my pleasure 'educating' with you all. Thank you. Take care. Namaste.

I am a former elder and missionary who didn't get kicked out, rather, I resigned. I know very well what goes on behind the scenes. These are items that have not been talked about much. For example, every year, Jehovah's Witnesses devote entire meetings to re-explain that blood is out of the question for their flock. Congregation elders receive EACH YEAR a script that they are to READ to the congregation which outlines what the Governing Body of Jehovah's Witnesses believe to be the only way to please their god. To disagree with the Governing Body in these matter is taught
to be the same thing as being disloyal to Jehovah. At these meetings, parents and guardians are encouraged to hold practice sessions
with their children about what to say if doctors or courts try to prescribe a blood transfusion. After these meetings, the Witnesses break off
into smaller groups, where elders and their assistants witness all baptized Jehovah's Witnesses sign several legal documents that have been
printed by the legal department of Jehovah's Witnesses. It is all set up ahead of time. Thus the Governing Body essentially makes this decision
for all of their flock, and even have them sign legal documents to ensure that blood isn't an alternative. While adults may do this, how can a 14 year old make this decision? If you are a child, or teenager, you have no choice in the matter. To disagree and take blood (or even openly disagreeing with this teaching) makes a Jehovah's Witness of any age liable to explusion and shunning. (what Jehovah's Witnesses call disfellowhipping) Thus, there is no alternative point of view, and no opportunity for a minor child to come to any kind of different conclusion. How else does a 14 year old make such a decision that effectively ends his life? Because he has investigated all the facts? No. It is because he had no choice.

Thank you Jeffrey for weighing in on this one.

There are two basic legal components to this question, as I see it. 1) Is a 14 year-old competent to make such a decision; 2) What consideration do legal and medical entities have to give to the coercive component of the JW organization above and beyond whatever disciplinary measures a 14 year-old might face from his parents?

We have fought over the question of a 14 year-old's maturity and his ability to make a life-or-death decision; the law recognizes that not all have the same level of maturity and some may indeed take more responsibility for their lives. This is readily apparent in the state's treatment of child-custody cases, where a 14 year-old may certainly cast the deciding vote in which parent or guardian he or she will live with.

But as to the second question, I would like to use a legal example from Canada. The age of consent for engaging in sexual relations in Canada is 14. There is a major exception to this rule, and that is if a minor engages in sexual activities with someone who is in a position of authority over them... as an example, their pastor. This is forbidden, because of the dangers of coercion. An adult (legally defined) is expected to be able to recognize and defend against coercion that is not forcible; an adult will not be able to cry 'rape' unless they show that physical force or threats thereof were involved. Even so, the law recognizes coercion with regards sexual relations between adults in the workplace or a teacher-student situation (eg, university, and especially grad students and their advisors). Institutions are expected to put into place guidelines to protect the vulnerable from sexual coercion in these situations. More importantly, the law PRESUMES that the act was performed under coercion, that the consent given by the minor is invalid because of coercion. This is the only way to protect the children.

When dealing with a minor and persons in authority over them, the risk of coercion is so great that the law simply forbids sexual activity and presumes it is coercive. This is similar to the premise in the US behind 'statutory rape' laws. Now, we have a situation where this young person may have been legally allowed to make certain decisions about his body in sexual matters (in Canada, with his peers), but the law recognizes that he was vulnerable to certain forms of coercion and laws are in place to protect him from this. And if these laws are broken, we do not hesitate to call the sexual act 'rape', no matter if the young person goes before a judge and claims to have given consent to the act.

How much more so in this case, where a youngster was coerced into following an archaic dietary law which resulted in his death! Why does not the law recognize the essentially coercive nature of the JW organization's blood ban, and refuse to recognize minors' wishes with regards this particular medical treatment (because they are especially vulnerable to coercion), in much the same way they enjoy legal protection when their pastors and elders seek to pressure them into sexual acts?

We do not hesitate to call the former 'rape', why do we hesitate to call the latter 'murder'?

When I was 15 years old, I nearly died of what should have been a routine case of appendicitis. Instead, my appendix disintegrated, and I spent nearly a week in quarantine. I remember that the only thing I cared about was that I not be given a blood transfusion. I had no comprehension of the fact that appendectomies are low blood-loss surgeries. I was just terrified that someone, somewhere, would force blood on me.

I was a Jehovah's Witness. If the surgery had been life-threatening due to bleeding, I have no doubt that I would have physically fought, if I were able, to prevent being transfused. As they took me into surgery, I was prepared to die. At 15 years old. I had the strength of "mature" conviction.

Obviously, I didn't die. Sadly, Dennis did. I'm now 37 years old and look back at the time my faith was "tested" by the blood issue, and I realize how young and stupid I was, and I also realize that I had utterly no choice. When you're only presented with one real option, it's not a choice, not an option. As a JW, the only "choice" is to refuse blood.

I'm thankful that my surgery was not as life-threatening as I, at 15 years old, thought it was, because as a child, I had no choice, deluded though I was into believing I did.

Dennis' death is truly a tragedy.

The Watchtower is Jonestown in slow motion.
.

(((Stacey))) From another Stacy: I'm so glad you're out!

Thanks so much for sharing your experience to show the non-Witnesses the truth of Dennis' "choice"; as you said, he had none.

Stacey in Oregon - thank you for sharing your story. Ultimately, the laws for allowing children to make life or death situations need to be changed. This takes time but there are a few of us out here that are willing to get this process started. More children will die until this is amended. May I use your post in a letter to Children's Hospital I am sending? Those non-JW friends of Dennis know the truth of want Dennis revealed to a trusted non-JW. When Children's Hospital was called to understand their policy on granting "mature minor" status, an administrative nurse said, simply, they do not allow this - period - these are children, and that we must be mistaken or don't have all the facts of Dennis' case. I honestly believe this may have been one of the few cases in which Children's allowed this situation to happen, resulting in death. We CAN make immediate changes, starting with Children's Hospital in Seattle to NOT allow children to choose their fate. If enough letters and emails are submitted, just maybe we can save another Dennis there who is in the this same position until the day comes when our legislature does the right thing and removes the life and death option from children for religtious belief.

Dennis' friend, feel free to use my tale in whatever way you wish.

I think it's very difficult for law enforcement, judges and doctors to understand that a child who is articulate and determined may only be that way because they have been completely indoctrinated, like a trained poodle.

Dog jumps through hoops of fire, runs up a ladder rings a bell, walks on a tightrope, retrieves a drink from an imaginary fridge, barks three times in response to "1+2" then rolls over and plays dead when someone shouts "bang," people will observe that the dog is really smart. Yet the people with knowledge about how it really works behind the scenes are aware that the dog is really impressionable, and that 1000s of hours were spent training the dog to have a flawless response.

To someone without the background, it's really hard to determine the difference between "well-trained" and "mature." Unfortunately, most judges who are ruling on these matters are approaching it from a legal standpoint, and with the apparent "evidence" that the choices are well thought-out and "mature." They are mostly not aware of, or not able to make legal rulings based on the nuances of high control beliefs.

Even if the judge had been aware, what do you say when an adult-size child announces that, should blood be administered, he will fight and claw and rip out the IV, and that he knows he will die and is prepared?

Someone needs to get these kids into a closed door and private judicial session, with a counselor present - preferably one who is trained in cults/high control group mentality. It's much to harder to say what you really want when there is a courtroom full of JWs there (including HLC and family) out of "support" who want you to adhere to the party line and "keep your integrity." What is discussed in absolute confidentiality may, in some of these cases, have a very different outcome.

If you have not looked up the word apostate in the dictionary,and you are passionate about this case,you should.
Catholic basically means, all- encompassing. Apostate,means someone who has left our fold. Apostate does not mean someone who is evil.

Thus, well an "apostate" COULD be evil, not all evil are apostate.

Also, Catholocism encompasses all, but not all are Catholic.

Nathan nott ( Knorr)
You are a well read man. You can not believe that the old-fashioned practice od blood transfusions will ever be practiced by Witnesses. Yes things have been changed at times,but accepting blood? They never will. More Doctors are doing bloodless surgery. I am sure a welleducated mn like your selfcan refute me, but I am sure they will never take blood,just as I would never,simply because I cannot be convinced of the health of it.
No one can GAURANTEE it will save you.
P.s. I am curious, are you with any organized religion now?

Depending on your definitions and how you view things -- all religions are a form of a cult. BUT... Religion is truly irrelevant to the issue at hand.

The true issue at the core of this is whether or not children and their parents/guardians have a right to decide how and when we will receive medical care.

I have to side with Dennis and his aunt on this one.

Whether or not death is tragic, it is not our place as society to force medical care on anyone who doesn't want it.

You run down a slippery slope of parental rights and personal rights once you start allowing the state to make these decisions for you.

Does denying acne treatment or vaccinations or stitches vs. glue cause harm to your child? At one point is the ultimate choice the responsibility of the parent and child and at what point is it the responsibility of the state and medical professionals?

MBB The point we have all been trying to make here is that this is not about personal or parental freedom. If you have read this thread, you will see that Dennis was never given a choice. He was guarded by the HLC 24/7. He was constantly pressured by JW'S to give up his life. That's what the fight is about. I would stand beside the decision if it was a sound one. I will not however, allow someone to die for a printing company, and neither will anyone else.

Dennis deserved to be able to see the friends who comforted him. It would have been a great comfort to all involved. Instead, the JW's treated him worse than a death row inmate, as they stipped every right that young boy had.

s810
You are wrong again. We are still her monitoring your satanic venom, and JW bashing.
You continue to disregard the facts.
No matter what you or anyone else thinks, JEHOVAH FORBIDS THE USE OF BLOOD!. There now I have said it plain and simple so that even an imbicile could understand it. Now do you get it?
That is why Dennis refused blood, not because his friends and family wanted him to. He had a bible trained conscience and he obeyed it.
Why continue with the hateful remarks about JW's?
Address the issue. NO BLOOD!

oops, sorry, my last comment should have been addressed to alex

Alex, you are so full of sh*t that I may have to get some toilet paper to wipe off my monitor where you post is. All of you anti-JWs have misguidedly blamed the leaders of the JW organization and it's members and want them to be deprived of their rights to choose. Gary Curry even wants legislation passed to strip them of their rights, which by the way Gary, if Dennis had been like his father would you have let your daughter visit Dennis, or would you let Dennis visit your daughter? I doubt it, the fact that he was nothing like his father is the only reason you let your daughter associate with him. Since you have the parental right to choose who you daughter sees, what makes you think you can take those same rights from Dennis' legal guardian, who was not his junkie father, but his aunt who saved him from his loser parents lifestyle.

Alex and all of Dennis' self-proclaimed friends who are making their assertaions (by the way, in my opinion a friend is someone who supports their friend's decision, not tries to blame it on others), read the article at http://www.goskagit.com/index.php/news/article/tragic_end_to_a_troubled_life/
which presents a whole lot of different facts than the "facts" you are claiming.

1. Dennis had an attorney, doctors, and a judge all describing him as mature and not coerced.

2. A former teacher of Dennis was allowed to visit and she urged Dennis to have a transfusion (So much for your claims of him being guarded by JWs and not allowed to have "worldly" visitors.) Dennis replied, "I know a lot of you want me to do that, but more people want me to follow my faith." So Dennis acknowledged he had friends that wanted him to take the transfusions, and acknowledged that he had friends that wanted him to "follow my faith", not "follow my aunt's faith".

Face the truth, you anti-JWs are all bitter ex-JWs (or acquantices of Dennis who can't understand the faith that JWs possess) that salve your consciences by attacking the personal beliefs that are chosen by them, not by "brainwashing" as you claim. Nobody held a gun to your head to become a JW, nobody held gun to your head when you left. JWs don't strip anyone of their rights, people like you and Gary Curry are the ones who want to strip people of their rights.

I would have done the same thing Dennis did, not because of a religious belief, but because I've sat by friends and family who have desperatly clung to life, suffering an agonizing disease that hurt their family so much that their friends and family felt relief when they finally passed on, after racking up huge medical bills that devastated their family's savings. I would not put that on my family, but I suppose some wouldn't understand that and try have treatment forced on me against my wishes. People like you who think you know what's best for others and not trust them to know what's best for them.

I only accompany my wife to Memorials, Sunday conventions or assemblies, or the occasional school when she or my daughter have a part, but when I get home this week I am going to the meeting on Sunday out of respect for Dennis and a show of support for his decision.

S810, if you are Dennis' dad, than I'd like to just say you are a scumbag junkie that doesn't deserve to have a kid. I gave up smoking weed when my son was born because I wanted to provide an environment that children would feel safe in. You obviously were too self-centered and left your kid to fend for himself. Thankfully for him a loving aunt took him in and gave him the life a parent is supposed to. So for all of you who blame the aunt, the JWs, or the judge, the real blame lies at the feet of this worthless piece of human debris whose only contribution was some sperm in a moment of pleasure. You abandoned your son, and had the audacity to show up only to try to force medical treatment on him against his will. Believe me, there aren't words in the english language to express my disgust for you.

Go ahead Alex and the rest, start posting how you aren't going away, stroke each other for your posts, and declare yourselves "winning" because you won't go away. You are all pathetic losers to me.

The URL was cut off, it ends with /tragic_end_to_a_troubled_life/

Or go to http://www.goskagit.com/index.php/ and type 'lindberg' in the search box.

It's sad to see such a flagrant attack on someone who has lost so much. I'm disappointed to say the least. A real man would have concentrated his attack on me. The saddest part of that vitriolic post was that while you condemmed a man who had personal problems, you came across as a person totally inhibriated. My guess is that you get into the sauce a little to much. Add to that the rage issues you are exhibiting, and I think it's obvious. You need professional help. Please get it as soon as possible.

Nice Alex, you ducked every issue. In fact you sounded just like yourself earlier when you claimed JWs duck answering your questions.

Was I harsh? Let me quote Gary Curry in a earlier post, "And if you...don't like my attitude to (sic) bad!!!"

Now, quit ducking and address the points, not my views of a junkie who leaves his kid to fend for himself. Read the cited article and show me where Dennis was coerced.

Or duck the issue if you don't have a counterpoint.

Whoa! That was awesome Owen.
Sounds to me like the real losers here got their comeuppance this tine and well deserved, I might add.
Bravo Owen! Lets hear it for Owen everybody.
You know, if my child were on his death bed, and had already made his own informed decision to give up his life to keep his integrity to God, I too would not let anyone try to weaken his resolve in his already weakened state. I would want him to pass in peace. I applaud the decisions of all concerned.
Shame on the ex-jw's for trying to use this forum to debase Dennis' decison.

Shame on Owen and bob for attacking the mourning friends of Dennis. Owen, the fact that you can quote Dennis, "I know a lot of you want me to do that, but more people want me to follow my faith." -without comprehending the meaning of what he said, that he was making this decision, not out of his own personal reasons of faith, but because MORE PEOPLE wanted him to decide this way than the other, stuns me, frankly. As for your assertion that 'no one holds a gun to your head to become a JW', well, when you are speaking of a child, they very well might as well have. A child doesnt have a choice what religion his parent or guardian is going to raise him in, and if that religion does not permit the child to SURVIVE to adulthood, that is not only unfair, but morally wrong. JW children are coached and trained on what to say to a judge or doctor in the event of a blood issue, in order that they may appear more convincing in their maturity and conviction. This is a fact. JW parents are advised to do this at their meetings. If there are some JW parents out there who are not coaching their children in this fashion (Owen's wife, maybe or maybe not), it is because they are not following the commands of their own organization.

INFORMED DECISION?!?!

Owen, you yourself state that Dennis' statement was "more people want me to follow my faith"

That is proof right there... he was not doing this because it was HIS choice.

He did not say "I WANT TO DIE, I AM CHOOSING THIS"

He stated "someone else wants me to do this"...

This is the definition of coersion and this is what senselessly killed an innocent 14 year old who was NEVER ALLOWED to make his own choice.

Would you like a point by point reply... fine...

1. Judges, attorneys were present and deemed him mature... was a cult specialist there?? Someone who knows the way young children are indoctrinated so as to APPEAR mature, where their replies and conviction are trained, drilled into them in rehersals so that they may "give a reply to the one taunting them" as no more than a pet poodle in a show??

2. "A teacher" was allowed to visit Dennis - fine ONE?!?!? ONE non-JW was allowed there - how many witnesses were there reinforcing their dogma?!?!

Now reply to our questions- if this is HIS CHOICE, his faith, why is it that he needed these rehersals?? Why does your kingdom minstry encourage parents to "fortify" their children so if they are taken alone they can answer maturely? If this is supposed to be a test of maturity and test as to if this is really their choice - WHY are rehersals and preconcocted responses drilled into minors??

If blood is so sacred and to be poured out - why does the WBTS continually change its stance - now accepting blood fractions? If there is ONE LONE scripture supporting the abstinence of blood - show me the ONE scripture that supports the partaking of fractions please.

Emma,

The point of my citing the quote was not to point the numbers of supporters of each side of the issue, it was to point out that non-JWs had been allowed to visit (something everyone is claiming wasn't allowed to happen) and that he said, ""more people want me to follow my faith". "My faith", not "their faith". That is proof right there... he was doing this because it was HIS faith, and HIS choice. By the way, nowhere did I read, "He stated "someone else wants me to do this"..." except in your post

1. Was there a cult specialist there? It's not reported one way or the other, so I can't say and neither can you. If it was important to the side who was trying to have the transfusions forced on him, then it was on them to have one present at the hearing. Your insinuation however suggests that Dennis was a mindless "pet poodle". I give him more credit than that, and so did the doctors, attorney, and the judge.

2. By the way you react, then the ONLY person to visit Dennis was a former teacher. The article doesn't give a log of all his visitors, but posters here (like our suddenly gone silent friend Alex) have suggested that the JWs held him like a prisoner and denied any non-JW to visit. We don't know who visited Dennis, so don't presume.

I know that the JWs meet a lot and study a lot, but that is just part of their faith and lifestyle. Is that a crime? Not that I know of, but you anti- and ex-JWs seem to think so. My son played sports in high school and spent a lot of time practicing, I hope you don't have problem with that too.

I don't care what the WTBS believes, or you for that matter, but I will defend both of you in your right to believe what you want to.

I've read all the related articles. For the life of me, I can't figure out what you are trying to accomplish other than the fact the ONE non JW was allowed visitation. I read all the comments as well, and they are by far in agreement that you belong to a cult.

I stand by, and will continue to say this. You're a deluded induvidual who follows men, and a ridiculous doctrine that is not based on faith, but in controlling people.

Owen, I'm a little disappointed with the tone of your latest responses. This is a serious matter, one (more) boy is dead, we have grieving fathers and friends reading here...

I recognize that some of my own words have probably been hard to read for those who loved Dennis, but I have apologized when I went too far. I hope no one doubts my intentions, which are to put an end to the deaths of minors for religious beliefs they may or may not hold, but cannot fully realize their full import. And though you are consistently referring to persons such as Alex as opposers to the JW movement, I really doubt that anyone, Alex, myself, Emma, Midnight, Stacey, Stacy, Steve, S810, Elton (apologies to anyone I missed) are overly concerned with adults practicing their religion as they choose. I might find the dogmatic elements of the JW faith comically wrong-headed, but my only concern is that they kill children. If you want to believe in Armageddon, sell all your belongings, dress up in white robes and wait for the rapture on a bridge in Philadelphia, be my guest (look it up...). Tell me when & where, I'll bring lawn chairs, a bbq and beer cooler. Kill your children under the guise of your 'freedom of religion', I'll bring lawyers and district attorneys. I simply could not live with myself if I did not speak up and denounce the forced martyrdom of kids like Dennis, who never had a choice, and never had a chance.

Alex!! Just like a JW, you can't (won't) see what is right in front of your face because of your dearly held beliefs. Let me help.

"Dennis Lindberg survived a great deal of adversity in his 14 years of life. But the religious convictions that had given him some comfort in recent years also led him to refuse the blood transfusion that doctors said might have extended his life."

What was the adversity? Being raised by junkies who let his teeth rot, begging for food from neighbors, and let his school attendance drop to where he couldn't even read. The only stability this poor kid had was an aunt who took him in for summer visits and then legal guardianship after his junkie dad was sent to prison. No wonder he found comfort in being a JW, yet you would deny him that. I suppose he would have been better off with dear old dad, eh?

"Dennis’ attorney, Gaylen Payne of Federal Way, confirmed that his young client died Wednesday night. “Dennis was a remarkable young man, and I was very impressed with his maturity and the strength of his conviction,” Payne said."

You've already gone on record here as not knowing Dennis, yet you seem to think that Dennis was "brainwashed", "coerced", and forced, even though people who knew him are quoted just the opposite.

"Dennis had shaken off the scars of the drug culture that surrounded him in early childhood, and in recent years he had excelled at La Venture Middle School, where he was an eighth-grader. A loving aunt in Mount Vernon was appointed the boy’s custodian in January after his troubled parents were unable to care for him."

I don't need to make commentary here, unless you are too stupid or stubborn to read the facts.

"Dennis embraced his aunt’s Jehovah’s Witness faith." Embraced, not coerced, forced, or brainwashed. I suppose you now think the JWs brainwashed the reporter too?

"But at 14, Dennis was “mature, articulate, thoughtful and fully knowledgeable of what he’s doing,” Meyer noted. Dennis had not been coerced into refusing a transfusion, Meyer said, and he should be allowed to make his own medical decisions."

Again, you didn't know Dennis, but you can tell us he was really coerced? Uh-huh, okay. Someone here is delusional, and it isn't me. Try looking in a mirror.

"Under his aunt’s care, Dennis blossomed. He learned to read and not to fight with his classmates. He did normal kid things like having a newspaper delivery route and performing in a school play."

I suppose you think he'd have been better off with his junkie parents? It seems to me that his aunt was the best thing that happened to him.

"Outside of school, Dennis embraced the faith of his aunt, a Jehovah’s Witness. Dennis walked door-to-door on Saturdays, spending as much as 60 hours a month sharing his beliefs..."

If that's not dedication, I don't know what is.

"Then Morgan sent one last message to her friend. “I know that his friends from school may not be (his) spiritual family, but we love him just as much. And I would really like Dennis to know that.”

If you love him Morgan, you'd support him, not have your Dad trash his decision and seek legislation to have his rights stripped away.

Need I repeat that the reporter only reported on Dennis having one visitor, who was a "worldly" person, and not "the fact the ONE non JW was allowed visitation." I'm reasonably certain he had more than one visitor, and that it was more than one "worldly" person. After all, Dennis said, ""I know a lot of you want me to do that (take transfusions)..." so he knew, and how would he have unless they told him, that there was more than just this former teacher that wanted him to take blood.

Face the real facts Alex, you are an ex-JW who is so bitter that you became one that your deep seated anger causes you to act with hostility towards their beliefs, so much so that you will ignore the facts reported in a news article to bend them to fit your preconceived notions. Maybe you should seek professional help in overcoming your issues.

Kingsmeg,

Aren't you the one who compared Dennis to a middle eastern terrorist? The difference is that Dennis only hurt himself, terrorists hurt others, even innocent people, so bad comparison.

Let me see if I understand you, adults (Which you don't define what an adult is. 18yo? 21yo? I'd say at 14 Dennis was more of an adult than his junkie father will ever be. I believe being an adult has more to do with maturity and accepting responsibility, as opposed to a set physical age.) have the right to do whatever they want, if they want to refuse a blood transfusion than so be it, eh?

Well then here is the Million Dollar question, who is responsible for raising children? You? The government? Or the parents of the children? Should children have the right to do whatever they want, or do parents have the right to say what their children are exposed to? IF, and it's a big if, Dennis were a junkie like his dad, instead of the respectable kid his aunt had influenced him to be, and Morgan Curry were lying in a hospital bed, should Gary and Jan Curry have the right to deny a junkie from seeing their daughter and urging her to abuse drugs? Would you be vilifying them if that were the story? I hope not, and I hope Gary can see the point as well.

So what's your solution, JWs can have kids but not raise them? Or do they have to provide food and shelter, but be forbidden from taking them to meetings and sharing their beliefs with them? I hope you can see how ridiculous this is. You really can't be serious in suggesting that parents be denied their right to raise their children as they see fit. Or their medical treatments, as long as the child agrees. Let's say Morgan Curry were in the hospital and doctors said they needed to amputate her leg. Her parents say go ahead and Morgan says no. Should they be able to force her to have her leg cut off? Should courts force her to have it done? She seemed to be a mature girl in the video, why shouldn't she decide? If so, why shouldn't have Dennis been allowed to decide?

Granted it's a complex issue, but bottom line is that each of us with a reasonable amount of maturity and possession of our faculties should decide for ourselves, no matter what our age. Parents should have the right to choose for their children, and if the government decides that the parents are making poor choices they should take custody away from the parents. But we are now opening a very big can of worms. Who really was the better parent for Dennis, his natural father or his aunt? Everything points to the aunt.

Kingsmeg, I've been disappointed with all your posts, so it's only fair to give me a chance to catch up.

I am curious Owen, you claim your wife and child are JW yet you are not.

Why is someone so PRO JW not a member?? Why continue to let your wife and child be pittied at congregation meetings as "an unevenly yoked family"?

Perhaps you have heard of their judicial committee meetings, the ones Dennis would have been subject to had he accepted a transfusion?? Perhaps you know of the choice he faced, had he accepted a blood transfusion or appeared immature in legal questionings. His faith would have been investigated in such committees by at least 3 men double his age, they would have inquired into EVERY matter of his life and his very relationships that seemed "bad association" that could have led him to give into temptation and accepted this life saving treatment.

Had this judge and jury of three men convicted him of improper conduct Dennis faced ostracisim and rejection by these staunch supporters on this very blog without even a second glance.

You claim to also be an expert on his family life, this would have left Dennis virtually homeless at the MATURE age of 14, how is that for a CHOICE??

OR perhaps your expertise lies in brainwashing itself. Tell me Owen.. are brainwashed victims usually aware of their state?? Do they freely proclaim "we are brainwashed and we love it!"?? In a successfull brainwashing, the victim and even most recruiters are not even aware of the rights they have relinquished to the organization that holds them captive. As is the case with most JWs, They will laughingly tell you "yes we have been brainwashed of the filth of Satans wicked system of things." Brainwashing and mind control techniques are designed to leave their captives appearing (now how did you describe Dennis) YES - "impressed with his maturity and the strength of his conviction"... interesting.

Perhaps Owen, your expertise lay elsewhere... in the field of deprogramming, how many months, years, decades does it take for someone indoctrinated since birth does it take for them to be deprogrammed of this "STRENGTH OF CONVICTION"?? How long does it take for them to "get over" being mind raped by an organization just to be used as a slave in book sales and further recruitment techniques? How did this conviction influence their life?? Their choices, careers, opportunities? how much of this has to be rebuilt because thier FAITH dictated that all major decisions should be "researched according to sound watchtower (AKA cult) guidlines."??

I am sure you are in expert in all these fields and know far better than any of its victims the torture and slavery a cult imposes.

Owen states: “You really can't be serious in suggesting that parents be denied their right to raise their children as they see fit.” Actually, that is exactly what I state, when ‘raising them as they see fit’ means causing their DEATHS. Usually, the court system and child protective services are in agreement. In this case, the courts and the system failed Dennis. Think about it. Why didn’t Dennis’ birth parents have custody of Dennis? Because they were deemed unfit. They were denied the ‘right’ to ‘raise him as they saw fit’, because their actions could have caused harm or death to him, and it was deemed that they did NOT have the right to do that. What was the result of Dennis’ aunt’s parenting style? His DEATH. Why did she have the right to cause his death? Because she is acting according to her religious beliefs? What if Dennis’ parents believed their ‘religion’ was drug abuse, and that god mandates they not only use drugs, but teach their child to as well? Should the courts and the legislature allow that under the banner of ‘freedom of religion’? Is it because she convinced Dennis to consent to being allowed to die? A child cant consent to mistreatment under the law. If you teach your child from birth that god wants him or her to commit suicide on their 14th birthday, and then they do, how are you not responsible? A parent or guardian doesn’t have the ‘right’ to ‘raise their children as they see fit’ if that entails training them to move downed power lines in a lightning storm, or take naps on railroad tracks, or drink poison, or refuse life-saving medical treatment, or any other such action that would or could result in their DEATH. It doesn’t matter if they tell the child that god wants them to do these things, or if they child agrees with them, or even if they themselves sincerely believe god wants the child to do these things. If parents or legal guardians see fit for their children to die, they do not have the right to make it so, even if their means of doing that is to convince the child to cause their own death themselves.

Emma, Emma, Emma, how (or more succinctly, why) do I begin to respond to you?

"Why is someone so PRO JW not a member?? Why continue to let your wife and child be pittied at congregation meetings as "an unevenly yoked family"?"

My wife wasn't a JW when we married, my grandmother studied with her and brought her in. If you are as hip to being a JW as you claim, then you know the only grounds for divorce for a JW is adultery, not because your spouse won't join you in the faith. And since I've never committed adultery, she's never had grounds, not that it was needed. Granted it was rocky a bit at first, but we were able to set boundaries and have managed to co-exist peacefully. I respect her faith and support her in it, so she isn't "pitied" as you seem to suggest. I've gone to meetings, conventions, and even studied with the brothers, I'm not vilified by the congregation because I'm supportive of my wife and daughter. If that bothers you, tough, deal with it.

I've heard all about people being disfellowshipped for not living up to the faith, and I've heard of people being reinstated for being repentant. I even heard of a pioneer brother who committed adultery with a pioneer sister. They were disfellowshipped, the innocent husband disassociated, the innocent wife remained faithful. The adulterer's married after their respective spouses divorced them, and later they were both reinstated later. So to tell me that you are "forced" is BS, you can commit disfellowshipping offenses and be reinstated later if that is what you really want. Or you can just accept disfellowshipping and get on with your life. Ooops, maybe not, obviously several ex-JWs posting here can't do that. Now before you try to convince me that disfellowshipping and shunning is harsh, you'll have to first convince me that possessing meth shouldn't result in jail time. After all, if not following the faith will result in shunning is harsh, how much harsher is it to jail drug offenders? If society (not THE Society) can ostracise those who violate their laws, why can't JWs ostracise those who violate their creed? Or are you a proponent of double standards?

"You claim to also be an expert on his family life, this would have left Dennis virtually homeless at the MATURE age of 14, how is that for a CHOICE??"

Give me a break, are you really that ridiculous? I have in no way claimed to be an expert of Dennis' family life, only cited news articles as my source, not made outrageous claims based on my being raised a JW...perhaps because I wasn't, ya think? Explain to me how Dennis would have been left homeless. What about his "worldly" friends? Wouldn't Gary and Jan Curry have taken him in? By the accounts, dear old Dad is out of stir, so he could have taken him back. However, you and I both know you are blowing smoke out of your a$$, JWs don't throw their kids out of the house because they refuse to follow the faith, at least I haven't heard of any. Maybe once they reach the age of legal adulthood, but they are obligated to provide for their minor children. So give your drama a rest.

I'm not an expert on brainwashing, but a simple Google search on the subject will prove that JWs don't use brainwashing techniques, which involve depravation of basic necessities. JWs only study their publications with you and use the Bible to back up their claims and let you decide to accept their beliefs or not. Several have tried with me, and I've yet to have any lock me in a room and deprive me of sleep, food, or bathroom priveleges.

I'm not a deprogrammer either, and rather than get into your rant, I'll only say one thing. They give their literature away free, so where do you get off with "book sales"? Again, nobody is forced to remain a JW, you can walk at any time. Your question "how many months, years, decades does it take for someone indoctrinated since birth" depends. Maybe for you the rest of you life. I know others who have made up their minds as teens and moved on without ever looking back. I figure you for being a weak individual, no matter what religion or creed you were raised with you'd have issues. Seek professional help and move on with your life, if you have the emotional fortitude to take control of your life. It can be done.

"I am sure you are in expert in all these fields and know far better than any of its victims the torture and slavery a cult imposes."

There are victims of abuse, and there are victims of themselves. People who've been raped, robbed, assaulted, etc. form the first group. Then there are those who are victims to their thoughts and emotions, ones who blame others for their problems instead of facing them and putting them behind them. Again, seek help. Quit blaming a religion and quit attacking those who embrace that faith. You need to learn to live, when you do you can let others live.

JW's take liver transplants, and heart transplants, and other body part transplants, and can remain in good standing with the congregation, but, if you take a blood transfusion you could be disfellowshipped and shunned. If you have a strong faith then why take a body part from another person, just die and have faith in the resurrection to a better world. I personally, as stated before, believe we should abstain from blood, and I believe James made the right decision, because he would have died shortly even with the blood transfusions. He would continously have to be taking blood transfusions, and would die anyway. Better to abstain from blood and have a faith that Jehovah will resurrect you into a new world, away from this disgusting horrible world. That is why we should have a strong FAITH and GOOD CONSCIENCE toward Jehovah, because this life is just for a very short time period, why risk displeasing the creator. I personally believe in life and death situations, this should be one's own personal decision and not a command from imperfect humans. I know alot of JW's who would refuse body part transplants, because they consider it just as bad as a blood transfusion. Livers that are transplanted have amounts of human blood in them when they are transplanted. JW's have the truth of the Bible, but, I think they have allowed the imperfect men in new york to to take to much mind control over other imperfect humans beings. Alot of man made rules. JEHOVAH AND JESUS come first and their word the Bible.

JW's take liver transplants, and heart transplants, and other body part transplants, and can remain in good standing with the congregation, but, if you take a blood transfusion you could be disfellowshipped and shunned. If you have a strong faith then why take a body part from another person, just die and have faith in the resurrection to a better world. I personally, as stated before, believe we should abstain from blood, and I believe James made the right decision, because he would have died shortly even with the blood transfusions. He would continously have to be taking blood transfusions, and would die anyway. Better to abstain from blood and have a faith that Jehovah will resurrect you into a new world, away from this disgusting horrible world. That is why we should have a strong FAITH and GOOD CONSCIENCE toward Jehovah, because this life is just for a very short time period, why risk displeasing the creator. I personally believe in life and death situations, this should be one's own personal decision and not a command from imperfect humans. I know alot of JW's who would refuse body part transplants, because they consider it just as bad as a blood transfusion. Livers that are transplanted have amounts of human blood in them when they are transplanted. JW's have the truth of the Bible, but, I think they have allowed the imperfect men in new york to to take to much mind control over other imperfect humans beings. Alot of man made rules. JEHOVAH AND JESUS come first and their word the Bible.

hey owen leave alex alone everyone's allowed to have their opiion so let him express his. the fact that they didn't let pan see dennis before he died because of not being a JW is horrible :(

I am saddened and sickened by this child’s death.

What can one say? What the proper condolence when a child dies and his religion is actually HAPPY about it? We need to know, because just since 2006 I’ve read of the following deaths:

(One) a newborn twin in Trinidad being allowed by its Jehovah’s Witness parents to die when a transfusion would have saved his life.

(Two) the 16-year old girl from Calgary who was spirited away from the Hospital by Jehovah’s Witnesses against court orders to keep her from having a transfusion her father chose (and was excommunicated for having requested it!),

(Three and Four) two of the 5 infants born to a Jehovah’s Witness couple in British Columbia, and

(Five) this 14-year old in Seattle.

What all these dead children had in common was (1) a parent/guardian who was a Jehovah’s Witness; (2) the presence of a Watchtower-designated "Hospital Liaison" assigned to make certain no blood is given and (3) an attorney (trained by the Watchtower) to make a court case out of the plight of the dying children

Dennis Lindberg and Bethany Hughes, both teens, died believing that the Watchtower speaks for God. Anyone who reads material printed by the Watchtower Tract Society will be familiar with their claim that Jehovah uses only their corporation to "channel" His message. The fact that any teen would not question why the Almighty [who can makes "the very rock cry out"] was unable to make Himself heard by any means other than Watchtower print media, is for me, sufficient evidence of their NOT thinking for themselves.

Did you know that the Witnesses didn't always believe that blood transfusions were unscriptural? That doctrine was added in the 1950's shortly after the Salk vaccine nearly eradicated the threat of polio. That’s when the Watchtower gave up their long-help teaching that ‘vaccinations were of the Devil" and never helped anyone’. Only then were the children of Jehovah's Witnesses allowed to be vaccinated.

How many Jehovah's Witnesses' children were killed or crippled by polio, or other preventable diseases because their parents loyally observed this [now discarded] Jehovah's-word-to-the- Watchtower teachings we may never know. It sure makes me wonder how many young lives will be lost because of what they are now purporting to be God’s word about transfusions before that too is abandoned for some “Newer Light”.

Doesn’t this topic make you wonder if the “faithful worshipers of Jehovah” who’ve been telling us that letting their children die rather than have a blood transfusion is “pleasing to Jehovah” are any different from the ancient “faithful worshipers of Moloch” who were willing to offer their children up to please HIM?

Wonderful posts Emma and Midnight. As I read over Owens latest post, I'm struck by just how sad and pathetic this man really is. I will start with making a plea. Let's not attack a man who has made numerous mistakes in his past. By that I'm referring to Dennis' father. I've known people who have had drug issues in the past. From what they've told me, breaking that cycle is harder than you not drinking the kool-aid five nights a week. The man lost a son, and is greiving. You only make a fool of yourself and bring reproach on your god Jehovah when you when you spew against him. Yes, yes, you go on to tell anyone who will listen, that you're not a JW. It's just that you state that so often that it seems like a cover to keep the elders off your back.

Congrats on the undercover work for the brainwashing. You were able to find a form they don't use. Well, that could be argued. I mean, they do have outdoor conventions that can last a few days. They are outside in the sun, usually in July, and people get to dress in a suit for 8 hours baking in the sun with for a few days.

They give their literature away for free!!! I'm sure you meant for a donation, but either way, let's look at this. Just why do they give it away, cough, donation. Let's take you back a few years, to the day when they did charge, and sold subsciptions to boot. One day, me and my fellow JW's were at a meeting, we knew that "new light" was coming, and gosh were we excited. Imagine our shock when told that never again would we charge for our low grade toilet paper. I was actually impressed. Do you know why they made the change? I do. They got sued mate. Yup, they got sued along with a famous televangelist of that time. Seems that the IRS wanted every JW to get a sales license. They wanted to make that income taxable. Hence, that wonderful new light about donations. Sad part is, the publisher is expected to donate when they get the books, and again when they place them. That's called double dipping, and still no taxes. Nice try on that free bit though. Anyways, it's late.

Owen said to Emma (at the end of a tirade of ridiculous insults): "You need to learn to live, when you do you can let others live." Except, not Dennis, I guess. We can all just learn to live and let live, except not poor Dennis because he's DEAD. That is the issue at hand. We let Dennis DIE, we didnt let him live. Maybe we can learn to let the next kid in Dennis' situation live. I hope so. I know that's what I'm hoping for.
As far as Owen's claim that JW's dont throw their underage kids out of the house for not following the religion (which he bases on the evidence that he has never personally heard of such an instance)...yes, they do. Certainly not all JW's do this, but it does happen. Often enough that I personally know of four cases of where the child was either thrown out and became homeless, or was threatened with being thrown out, and then out of fear, complied with the demands of the religion instead (some of these children were even younger than Dennis).

Megan, you are an exceptional kid. Thank you very much for coming to my defence. I've dealt alot with JW's so this is easy for me, and for the others that are doing this. If you get a chance, please extend my heartfelt condolances to you, your family, and anyone else that tried to help Dennis. Take care.

Actually, the JWs still charge for their publications.... in third world countries. Pretty much anywhere they can, in fact, without being taxed. So much for recieving free, giving free... especially to the people who could actually benefit from getting them free.

Midnight,

"Why didn’t Dennis’ birth parents have custody of Dennis? Because they were deemed unfit. They were denied the ‘right’ to ‘raise him as they saw fit’, because their actions could have caused harm or death to him, and it was deemed that they did NOT have the right to do that."

Where did you get all that information? Nowhere did I read that the courts stripped the parents of their rights and give it to his aunt. I read, "At age 9, Dennis arrived at Mincin’s home for another summer visit, expecting to eventually go home. But his parents disappeared in December 2004. Dennis assumed his parents were dead. But the family learned his father was in jail for meth possession." Where does it say the court stripped Lindberg, Sr of his rights? How do you know that Dennis, Sr. didn't give up his rights? If you have a citable source I'd like to see it.

"What was the result of Dennis’ aunt’s parenting style?"

According to the news article, "Under his aunt’s care, Dennis blossomed. He learned to read and not to fight with his classmates. He did normal kid things like having a newspaper delivery route and performing in a school play." Sounds like the best thing to ever happen in his life. The result? "Dennis embraced the faith of his aunt, a Jehovah’s Witness. Dennis walked door-to-door on Saturdays, spending as much as 60 hours a month sharing his beliefs" I think that is the biggest problem for you and some of the other posters here, how could Dennis embrace a religion that you have rejected as so oppressive? Dennis' life experience was much different from yours, to question his embracing the JW creed is more oppressive than you claim the JWs are. After all, they let you leave the creed, didn't they? Why can't you accept that Dennis wanted to be a JW? Bothers your conscience? Then you haven't moved on.

"Is it because she convinced Dennis to consent to being allowed to die?"

I doubt it, it's because Dennis had 'made the truth his own' as JWs are wont to say. Everything in the article points to the fact it was Dennis' decison. The sooner you can accept the fact that someone can make that decision, the sooner you can move on with your own life.

megan,

"hey owen leave alex alone everyone's allowed to have their opiion so let him express his."

hey megan leave me alone everyone's allowed ot have their opiion (did you mean opinion?) so let me express mine.

Alex,

Nice try, if I were a JW I wouldn't be suggesting you get on with your life, I'd be trying convince you to return to the flock. Keep the elders off my back?? Give me a break, I'm using only one name (first, last, or made up, who knows?) and using a shared hotel ISP. I couldn't be traced if the elders worked for the CIA.

Is my picking on Dennis Sr. bothering you? If the story was about Dennis ODing on his dope would you be standing behind him? Sorry, I know junkies too. The man lost all his rights as a human, and especially a father, a long time ago.

Udercover work on brainwashing? Simple Google search was all. Sitting outside in July in a stadium is brainwashing? LOL, then I guess baseball is a form of brainwashing, eh Einstein?

As for literature, I know that they used to collect a nickel for magazines when the JW picked it up at the Kingdom Hall. I don't remember when it happened, it was a long time ago, they ceased from that and they do ask for a donation, but will give it without one. I don't know about any lawsuits about it, and I don't really care. All I know is that now they don't "sell" literature. But then I'm not an insider, so I won't argue the point with you.

"Sad part is, the publisher is expected to donate when they get the books, and again when they place them."

I can argue that, my wife doesn't donate when she gets literature, nor does she give the literature away without a donation. I doubt she's so special that she is the only one.

Midnight again,

"We let Dennis DIE, we didnt let him live."

Dennis chose to refuse a medical treatment, which resulted in his death. You didn't have a say so in the matter, nor should you have. The issue at hand is are you going to respect his decision, or spit on his grave?

"Certainly not all JW's do this, but it does happen."

I'm not going to argue with this, I find JWs are just like every other group of people on this earth. Some are overzealous, some are reasonable. You can't lump all into one mold. I don't know of any cases of JWs throwing their kids out, but then, contrary to Alex's insinuation, I am an outsider. That said, can you say non-JWs don't throw their kids out for, say being gay, using drugs, or being violent? No? I didn't think so. It happens in all walks of life for all kinds of reasons. But we are digressing, what did Dennis want? Living with his druggie parents or his aunt? All we have to reference is the news article, and it sides with his aunt. I guess that just sticks in your craw, doesn't it?

thank you. you take care also. keep up the fight for dennis. even if you feel you might not be getting through to people, we know dennis has people fighting for him. good luck to you. :)

Owen, You bet my wife and I would have taken Dennis in!!! As far as the rest of our personal attack BS is concerned it does not deserve a response. You can believe as you like; you are an adult it's your choice. But I will try to save the children (even yours) from ALL religons who want them to give up their lives due to doctine!! The law needs to be 18 and I am going to do everything in my power to get it changed. And again Owen if you don't like my attitude too bad.

I have used the word ‘murder’ several times on this thread, and I did compare Dennis’ death to that of a suicide bomber. I would like to explain in a little more detail just how the Watchtower, Bible & Tract Society (a printing company) killed Dennis Lindberg. What follows is my opinion, not accusations against any specific individual.

The facts: Dennis was diagnosed with a form of leukemia for which his doctor estimated he had a 90% chance of surviving 5 years or more, if treated (Ellie Mae | November 28, 2007 11:11 PM). The treatment of choice is chemotherapy, which invariably depletes a person’s hemoglobin to such a degree that a person will die without a blood transfusion. There are no alternatives to blood, there is no hemoglobin-containing (or equivalent) blood substitute that is both approved for use on humans, and available, in the US. Dennis was 14 at the time.

The Watchtower is familiar with this situation, as they kill many of their members in similar circumstances every year. Child welfare authorities and judges are also familiar with the situation. Therefore, proceedings were instituted to have Dennis placed under the protection of the court, and forcibly administered the only available treatment which would give him any reasonable chance of surviving his illness. At which point Dennis apparently cooperated with his doctor BY PROMISING TO TAKE THE BLOOD TRANSFUSION WHEN IT BECAME NECESSARY (Dennis' Friend | November 29, 2007 7:22 PM). At which point the doctor, knowing full well the coercion Dennis was subject to from his cult’s leaders (yes, doctors know this well, they see it first-hand), thought that Dennis was in full possession of his mental faculties and went to the judge, pronouncing Dennis ‘mature’ enough to make this decision. After all, he thought Dennis was going to take the blood, disregard the JW blood ban, and face the consequences later. At least he would have been alive to do so. The judge, after interviewing Dennis and his doctor in private, concurred, and judged that Dennis should be allowed to make his own decisions. THEY BOTH THOUGHT DENNIS WOULD TAKE THE BLOOD, once the chips were down, though to protect Dennis they both said otherwise. From both their perspectives, this was better than having Dennis totally dependent on his JW aunt who would certainly have let him die, and better than giving a court order for treatment (which, as we remember from Bethany Hughes and many others, the JWs often defy, even kidnapping children from hospitals and removing them to secret locations). They thought they had found a way to save Dennis’ life.

Well, we know what happened, the doctor began chemotherapy (which he would not have done without Dennis’ assurance that he would take the blood, otherwise he knew he would be killing Dennis with the cure). When Dennis’ hemoglobin fell to a critical level, Dennis, surrounded by JW elders, well-wishers, Hospital Liaison Committee members (and probably JW lawyers), surprised the doctor by refusing the blood transfusion. The doctor didn’t have time to go back to the judge and request an emergency injunction, the damage was done (literally, brain damage). Sadly, he was forced to sit on the sidelines and watch Dennis die.

THIS IS MURDER. Why? We know from many, many informants in the JW organization that children are coached (Jeffrey | December 1, 2007 12:45 PM). They are told to practice certain phrases, say certain things (“I want to live, I want the best medical treatment”), and the purpose of this coaching is not to get medical treatment, it’s to avoid blood transfusions at all cost. Even at the cost of their life. Yes, this sick cult trains children to parrot certain phrases to judges, doctors, child welfare officials, knowing full well that if the child does so (and the judge believes them) it will result in his or her DEATH. In this instance, what Dennis told the doctor (the LIE that he would accept blood) was coached, it was planned by whoever was running the show, and that person murdered Dennis Lindberg. That person, knowing full well that Dennis would be given chemotherapy that would inexorably deplete his red blood cells until he DIED, coached Dennis in how to TRICK his doctor and a judge into proceeding with the chemotherapy without a court order for transfusions. They did; Dennis died. Murder.

Was Dennis mature? Did he understand that he was signing his own death warrant by convincing a judge that he was mature enough to make a decision about starting chemotherapy? I seriously doubt it. The people who did this were his spiritual leaders, representatives of God (so he thought), who could do no wrong. To disobey them was to disobey God himself, and guarantee his eternal damnation. And to ensure that he followed through with their sick plan, they surrounded him and told him God only knows what about faith, integrity, God’s archaic dietary laws, and especially… how he was giving a Witness to Jehovah. That’s what the name means, after all… Jehovah’s Witnesses. This is how they’ve been getting attention, admiration from many for their ‘steadfast’ refusal to compromise their ‘faith’. Over birthdays, Christmas, blood transfusions; anything that will make people notice them. This is the principal method by which they gather new recruits, by using such events as Dennis’ death as a means of starting conversations, explaining their ‘faith’, convincing people that Dennis is a hero, a role model, for what he did, that he has earned his place in Paradise.

Was Dennis mature enough to make this decision? No. He was subject to iron-fisted control, and the judge and doctor involved fell for a trick. A planned, rehearsed, practiced TRICK. The Jehovah’s Witnesses have been doing this for a long, long time, and they get away with it time and time again because once the victim is dead, few people are willing to re-examine what happened. Most just want to heal, and let the survivors get on with their lives. Well, I think it’s time we exposed this murderous cult for what they are. Jim Jones pales in comparison. This cult has killed tens of thousands, many of them children.

And I am shocked at the callousness of the JWs who have posted here, implying that Dennis is somehow better off for all this (because he’ll have his reward in Paradise! And he’s no longer in this “disgusting, horrible world!” --Ralph | December 2, 2007 8:33 PM). No, Dennis is not better off for being DEAD than he would have been with his natural parents, without ever being brought into this sick cult. No, he did not make a mature, informed decision to die. He was manipulated, then when he was weakest, coerced to follow through. He was murdered.

Firstly, with Washington law supporting children making their own choices in reproductive and mental health care at age 13, this isn't a surprising legal decision. I myself have a 14 year old boy, who is quite capable of making that decision for himself.

Irregardless of faith, death is not something to be feared. Current society has created a culture where death is an enemy to be defeated, rather than the natural part of the "circle of life". We tend to have a philosophy of "save them at any cost" mentality.

To those of many faiths across the globe, our current life is only one part of the journey. Looking at that large picture, death is not a finality, but a transition to another state of being. Given the founding of our country on rights of religious freedom, to deny people of faith their choices in prolonging or sustaining life via medical treatment is denying them their fundamentally guaranteed Constitutional rights--at any age.

Gary, you're a good man. Refusing to get into an insult match shows a strength of character. If you need any help, just let me know. Kingsmeg, that was a very well thought out post. Thanks for the insight.

WOW!!! I leave for a day and out crawl the JW's and my favorite ignorant
Owen is back!!

Owen, Owen, Owen, I love it when your ignorance shines through. As I suspected you either don't read or more so have a reading disability. Go back and read slowly when I said I knew Dennis well enough that he chose to call me dad. I was not his dad but I think, as children without a parent do, he was searching to fill that void and chose me. Don't worry I accept your apology for your mistake. As for your lack of concern for the other occupants of this planet, some people just aren't as perfect as you. I am glad you quit smokin' the weed for your child's sake too bad your parents didn't do the same for you. At least now I know why you are so screwed up and I feel sorry for you.

To all of you brainwashed JW's; If they ask you to drink the kool aid at the Kingdom Hall don't hesitate, just please drink it all and quick!!!

Alex, Kingsmeg, Megan, thank you for holding the torch but I am back, refreshed and ready to hold the line with you once again. I also just picked up our local paper and the headline is 'I never thought...she would let that boy die' and it is from the biological mother of the aunt who ordered Dennis' murder. When I read the article believe me I will be sharing those comments straight from the grandmother with you all so Owen, JW's wait and read.

Owen, sorry I can't write in crayon for you so you can understand better. Take another bong hit and relax for now.

Do you want to know how Dennis' trusted non-JW adult friend was able to see him? She had to force her way in while her husband helped. Dennis did not say, "I" want to follow my faith - he said "MORE PEOPLE" want me to follow my faith. It's too bad the aunt discontinued his web site thru Caringbridge, I would encourage everyone to read the JW posts encouraging just this. Behind closed doors, at the hearing before the judge ruled (I can talk about this now because it was not sealed), Dennis' aunt slipped and said SHE cannot allow him to have a transfusion because it was against HER religion. She did not say "OUR or DENNIS'" religion. Finally, when Dennis said he trusted his doctor's and if all else failed he will consider a transfusion, he did not say he would fight it, pull out the IV's, etc. He just wanted someone to take care of him. The doctors were going to transfuse him, Dennis trusted their medical judgment, and it wasn't until AFTER the aunt had petitioned the courts for emancipation (and lost) that she went back to the hospital administrators, once again, and begged for "mature minor" status. It was finally granted - in the aunt's own writing she said, "VICTORY!" [The hospital administrators have given Dennis this status], "I feel like a burden has been lifted off of my shoulders". Of course the burden was lifted, SHE didn't have to fight against the transfusion anymore. The towel was thrown to Dennis - he didn't have a chance. Choose transfusion and live, or follow the faith and the aunt's wishes who "rescued" him from his drug consumed parents. He knew he would be shunned from his family as well as his aunt. I know this because he told me this years ago when he "adopted" her religion. I also know first hand that there were several times she threatened to return him to the state, that she "couldn't handle it anymore". But once he accepted JW and received "praise" for doing JW work, all was fine. So he knew too well that he would lose his family if he choose the transfusion. No child should EVER be put in this position. I don't care about the JW faith, I care that they are murdering children. Encouraging Children's Hospital's around the nation to stop providing "mature minor" status and fine tuning the law regarding this grey area 12-18 minor's choice of life or death the avenue that needs to be pursued. Otherwise there will always be these forms going on, arguing over children dying, and people like Owen who doesn't have a clue about the children involved but tries to "pretend" he does so he can protect a religion. Take religion out of this please, this is just about a child who didn't want to die, but didn't feel he had any other choice.

What a great way to keep this kid's memory. All of you should be ashamed of yourselves! The nastiness here is beyond compare. It is a travesty that this young boy died, but it is even more a travesty that you are ALL resorting to name calling and ugliness, which makes you no better than those who let him die.

I have never, in my life seen such horrible venom as I have seen here. For those of you who believe in God, I do not think this is what God had in mind for his followers...and for those of you who don't, fine, but resorting to ciber-bullying and venom spewing makes you no better.

Poor Dennis. Not only did he die an un-necessary death, his memory is now being desecrated with your hatred towards one another.

It is disgusting!!!

Kris!!! We are fighting so this does not happen to another child, bottom line!!! I know Dennis personally and he would probably get a kick out of all the attention. In fact he probably would want to join in! I do know for sure that HE would not want another child to suffer this death. That I can tell you for sure. Now, anything else Kris???

Well folks I just read the article about Dianna Mincin's (Dianna is the JW aunt that let Dennis die) biological mother and her story. In it she accuses her daughter of isolating Dennis from his non JW friends and family. JW's why do you do that? Fear he might hear the truth? Why? Ms Mincin refused to let her own mother, Dennis' grandmother, speak to her dying grandson. Why? Because his grandmother begged Dennis to get a transfusion to save his life. Dennis, being isolated and surrounded by the JW's answered back to her, "Oma, Jehovah is waiting up there for me...' I have no doubt if Dennis was not isolated and surrounded by the JW's he would have saved his own life knowing people like the Curry's and the rest of us would have taken care of him and loved him for who he was.

I truly believe Dennis was someone who constantly wanted to please adults and was always searching for stability in his life. I know for sure the fear of being shunned by his aunt and the other adults scared him. If we, the non JW's just had a chance, which we were robbed of, to speak to Dennis we would have let him know that no matter what we would love, respect and take care of him unconditionally. Unlike the JW's who require you to give yourself to Jehovah and if you don't then they will turn their backs on you! What a sad thing to put on a child who has been searching for stability and acceptance from his family. That is just plain abuse! Poor Dennis.

This is such a tragic story, and it gets repeated again and again... I guarantee you that elsewhere in the world, today, another teenager with the exact same illness is being pressured to die by this same cult.

The tragic irony is this: the US Constitution does not guarantee a right to a speedy passage to an afterlife, it guarantees a right to life and freedom: the very two things Dennis was robbed of. However,the only person with legal standing with which to sue is...: his legal guardian, his JW aunt, who was first in pushing him to die for the Watchtower.

Yet another reason why child welfare officers, judges, and doctors need to put an end to this. Because no one else can; the very people who are legally charged with caring for these youths are the same ones killing them.

I wonder, because of his ignorance and not taking the time to educate himself fully on this, if grandma or bio mom and dad can sue the judge for a wrongful death? Probably not though. :-(

The problem is 'standing'. No one but the legal guardian has standing, or can be recognized by the court as having an interest in seeing the matter brought to court. If two strangers have an accident on the street in front of my house, I cannot sue on behalf of either one, because I lack standing. Only those who have been deprived of a right, or in the case of death those who were their heirs or guardians, have standing to sue.

This makes sense in most cases, because civil suits are asking for monetary compensation, this money cannot be given to someone who is not entitled to compensation from his death, or else the courts would be overwhelmed with unfounded suits.

Disclaimer: I am not a lawyer. But this is exactly why so many of us were hoping the Bethany case in Canada would go forward, in that the suit was brought by the girl's father, who was a legal guardian. The mother and JW corporation kidnapped the girl, kept her from her father (who authorized the blood transfusions, for the same illness), and of course the girl died. In Bethany's case however, since the doctors had no assurance that she would take the blood, they refused to begin chemotherapy, and a court order was given for it to be administered against her will. The JWs kidnapped her, found a doctor in another legal jurisdiction who promised to treat her with another method (he administered arsenic), and of course she died (without ever speaking to her father).

I don't know where the case is now in the Canadian legal system, but the courts have recognized that he has standing to sue. If the case proceeds, then at least in Canadian court the coercive tactics will be documented. As will be the fact that HLC members and JW lawyers are representatives of the JW legal corporation, which should extend liablity for wrongful death right up the ladder to JW headquarters in Brooklyn (I would be astonished if this happened, I'm just saying that it should happen, because they are indeed to blame).

Here is a thought to 'chew' on... We live in a country where a person cannot choose to be euthinized even if they are elderly, sick or what-have-you but we do allow a judge and family to sacrifice a 14 year old child in the name of religion??!! I love America!

May I humbly suggest that we end the posts to this blog?
The facts of this story will remain the same; and we can not change the false teachings of the JW cult. Anyone who reads the Bible knows God's truth about blood...and I'm not referring to the Witnesses here (they're spoon-fed selected scriptures that support their doctrine...Few of them actually read the Bible)

If people want change for future situations that involve minor children choosing their own medical advice, we'll have to take it to a higher level.

Besides, the Witnesses here are just counting this time spent blogging on their time cards. We shouldn't give them that satisfaction.

Sorry Briana, I will continue to defend if I feel it necessary. Just when I think it is over the JW's start in again with there usual crap. When they are gone, I am gone. I understand your plea but I am sorry I must continue.

Why I can't agree with anyone thinking that a blood transfusion is in any way in violation of any of God's laws, I am wondering if a 14 year old girl could have the right to refuse to have an abortion or for that matter ask to have an abortion?

Owen, I have not read all you wrote, but you made some great comments on Dec 2.
Don you also made some great comments on 11-29.
Now, DOES ANYONE HERE SMOKE? If you smoke, or think others should be allowed to smoke, you better let people have their rights. It is NOT ABOUT WHETHER JEHOVAHS WITNESSES are RIGHT. It is about our rights in a free country. DO you want people telling whether or not you can smoe, because they feel they now what is right for your health? Years ago who thought smoking would be banned on airlines? Then in Public places? In some places you can not smoke in your own car at work. Trans fats are next. Big brother knows what is best? Do you see the parallel? If I can decide whether or not Dennis can get a blood transfusion, can I also decide that you eat too much McDonalds and are headed for a coronary, and stop you, to save your life? Can I stop you from promiscous SEX to save your life? Where does it all stop? Dennis father could not take care of him, his Aunt did , if his father wanted Dennis to get blood he should have been a better father and stuck around. You are trying to say our entire government and judicial system is wrong if you take away a child and guardians rights. Well, ... maybe our government does have issues. Is that what you are really saying? There are countries where parents can not make choices for their children. Last I saw they were COMMUNISTS. I just can not believe all the people who spend so much energy spitting out diatribes against Jehovahs Witnesses. I have never seen a blog before this one. I wonder if Mormons or others with odd beliefs get so much hate. I keep hearing that Witnesses believe other religions will cease. With all the hate out there,it seems realistic that people will work to STOP ALL RELIGION.
Please, do not bother attacking me,I am not really giving my viewpoint much. I just love a good debate, and this is better than TV. How long will they keep the blog up?

s810,
re your 12-3 1:25 comment, Much of the comments you argue about are not even from those people. ( JWs) They are just from people wo disagree with you. Tell us some more about YOU. it must be an interesting story.
What did these Jehovahs Witnesses force on you?
- an independent outsider

Nice try, Brian. Last I heard, 14 year-olds are NOT allowed to smoke, regardless of what their guardians feel on the subject. Apparently, they're not mature enough to make such a decision...

However, judging by what happened to Dennis, all it would take is for someone to claim it's part of their religious practice, and soon 14 year-olds will be able to buy their cigs without having to get fake ids.

Oh Bryan I am glad you are having fun with this and thank you for playing "Really bad analogies." Try to keep up and stay on task here becuase you are way off like many other JW's who can't stay on subject. Thank you for wasting our time for your fun.

DamienX - Take the time to read the rest of the blog and it will answer all of your questions. I am not going to bring you up to speed I am going to let you do that yourself. Anything else?

S810,
You can argue a point without resorting to name calling and insults. It doesn't change the fact that this is a disgusting display of human nature.

You are condescending and pompous! Plain and simple...It serves absolutely no purpose...especially in Dennis' case.

If you are THAT spun up and angry about this issue, call or write your congressman/woman. All your words mean nothing on this blog if you don't take real action.
ANYTHING ELSE?!? BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH!!!!!!!!!!!

5810 I will fight with you the best I can. I think this whole situation is horrible. dennis would probably be alive right now if he had that transfusion. and I send my condolences to you. keep up the fight for dennis. good luck. :)

hey kris
leave 5810 alone everyone is entitled to their opinion. so back off. you don't know what dennis's friends are going through right now. filled with anger, confusion. I'm sure if you had a friend who died of cancer but could be saved, you'd do everything you could to save their live too.

sry let me rephrase that. if you had a friend that died from cancer and they could be saved you'd do everything you can to make sure it doesn't happen again. sry for the typo.

Um, Kris how do you know I haven't contacted my state officials??? Are you sure?? Kris, if this is such a disgusting display why are you still here? Morbid curiosity? This may serve no purpose to you but for the some of us, as stated in other entries, this is part of our therapy. Don't forget freedom of choice but in this case no one is dies!!! Condescending I will give you but only towards ignorance. Pompous, not really. Thanks for checking in again.

Thank you again Megan. I am happy to see you are still here. You have a good heart...and I am not being condescending when I say that. ;)

A short stroll through this thread will tell you that congress will be informed Kris. It should also tell you that change needs to happen, and I'm sure it will.

your welcome. i just wish there was more I could do. I can't begin to imagine how it feels to loos a friend to cancer, knowing he could live a few more years if he had a transfusion. I'm truly sorry he's gone 5810 and I hope your heart begins to heal soon. be here if you need me. :)

No doubt Megan. It is a travesty. And if it had been a friend of mine, I would defend my point to the end. I wasn't talking about defending a point. There is nothing wrong with that. AND it is okay to be angry. But not to the extent that people start name calling and making personal attacks towards those who are only trying to make sense.

You say he/she has a right to their opinion but tell me to back off. A little hypocritical don't you think, considering I was not attacking S810...they were attacking me! I did not criticize or attack S810. I called attention to all of you because of the VENOM that was being spewed. But S810 decided that I was making a personal attack and called me on it. I didn't say anything that wasn't true. I am not calling anyone names.

Making personal attacks serves no prupose and it doesn't make a difference in what happened to Dennis.

S810, with all due respect, I am truly truly sorry for your loss. I know what it is like to lose a friend to cancer. I did about three months ago. He was a boss, and my mentor. He lived for three years after being diagnosed and lived so that his family would be okay when he was gone. He lingered and struggled and suffered until all of his affects were straight...leaving his family with absolutely no burdens to carry. Dennis did not have to die like this and something SHOULD be done. It is truly sad.
I do not have morbid curiosity as you accused me of. I CARE about people and the way they treat one another. Lately our world has become so filled with hate and discontent that we are taking it out on one another and it grieves me. But, instead of hiding from it, I am confronting it.
If that makes me ignorant S810, then so be it. But you do not have to resort to making attacks on my character or thought process. You know me no more than I know you. I don't make assumtpions about anyone. If therapy is what you need, then so be it. You can talk about the issue without being HATEFUL. Hate is a disease, a cancer if you will. You can hate the outcome, but don't be hateful. It will only make you bitter.

Alex, no doubt that someone in this blog has contacted their congressman...I only hope it does some good.

I understand, were all angry about what happened to dennis and I think that we should take steps so it doesn't happen to another young person again. its interesting becasue I read of a nother case .ike this one. a man about 51 years old has a face tumor that covers his whole face. he can have a transfusion that could save his life but he's a jehovah and refuses to have it. I find it very hard to understand. if there is a procedure you can have that would save your life why not have it? I'm very confused. :(

I've witnessed a lot of "all or none" thinking in this discussion. Some might characterize Dennis' aunt as evil but look at the love and concern she showed to a poor youngster who was left shipwrecked by the failures of his natural parents.

Some might characterized Dennis' father as completely selfish and evil, but who can honestly believe that the man's heart was not torn out when his child died?

People are often misguided. They make a mistake of thinking that they can control their use of methamphetamines, or they make the mistake of confusing "doctrines of men" with divine law. In either case the consequences can be disasterous.

Is there ANY OTHER RELIGION that routinely asks its youngest members to die? I can only think of one - wahabi Islam - the sect of the terrorists.

It might surprise some that I believe people should be free to practice the religion of their choice. But we aren't talking about a decison to not salute the flag or not participate in sports or not to pursue a higher education or to wear a funny hat - we are talking about committing suicide.

Someone else has already noted the irony that euthanasia is against the law in Washington State. Well, here's the solution: form a religion that holds euthanasia as a sacrament. Then all the Lawyers and politicians will get out of your way because you are "practicing your religion."

Under the guise of religion, people can get away with almost anything.

The WATCHTOWER should be required to print a warning on all its literature saying, "Acceptance of this belief system may KILL you."

It is a struggle to understand the ways of any religious sect especially when it comes to issues like this. It's all in interpretation of scripture.
However, I cannot believe that God gave people the talent to heal for us to denie healing. As a Christian myself, I believe in divine healing...which I believe comes through the hands of researchers and physicians and sometimes, through prayer. That's just me though...many think that if you go to a doctor that you have no faith...I completely disagree. Again, that is just me.

I think that the JW's have grossly misinterpreted what God was saying about blood consumption. Ask any jew what God meant, and they will tell you, he was talking about eating...not blood transfusions.

The fact that he had JW's watching him around the clock and would not allow anyone who was a non-believer in the room, is enough for me to deduce that he was under the control of his congregation and not under his own. If he was mature enough to make his own decision as they claim, then they should have left his room after conferring with his physicians. Unfortunately, his fate was left up to his Aunt and we know what the result is.

Bottom line here is, where do we decide what is and isn't acceptable in religion? As long as it does not interfere with someone else's civil rights, then we can be angry with the outcome, but we cannot stomp on their beliefs. It stinks, but those are the facts.

The question here is, were Dennis' rights taken from him to survive, or was it his decision to die? We will never really know the answer to that. But, if it wasn't soley and purely his decision, then, I believe we have a murder on our hands...and those who decided to deny him his rights to live or die will answer for it sooner or later, one way or another.
Whether by divine justice, or secular.

My sympathies to all those who loved Dennis.

It's a shame that this 14 year old boy was misled by Jehovah's Witnesses. It is not just pressure from family and congregation and the possibility of shunning that caused his poor decision. Most people would choose shunning over death. He also was taught to fear the God they call Jehovah. He was taught that he would lose "everlasting life" for disobeying the Watchtower Publishing Company, since they represent the God, Jehovah. Being a former member, I am confident that this 14 year old was not given adequate information about the scriptural application of Jehovah's Witnesses ban on blood.

Adults are misled by this cult, and blood should be forced on them too. I dread the day I have to decide whether to force blood on my unconscience wife (still a JW believer) and disregard her wishes based on warped information from a mind-control cult, or let her die in ignorance.

Members of the Jehovah's Witnesses are caring people, so I could see how these misled people could influence a 14 year old. They truly believed they had his everlasting interests in mind and heart. I only am angry with the Watchtower Publishing Company, and the judge who didn't require a complete pyschiatric exam from an expert.

Jerome,
Let's hope that the day you have to make that kind of decision never comes. But, if it does, I would err on the side of love. I am surprised that your wife, being married to a non-believer, is even regarded as a JW...Even if you went against her wishes, the JW's could not hold her accountable for something that was not her decision! And, if it is that important to her, then she needs to write a living will so that decision will not be left in your hands.

Blood is sacred...and if someone else is willing to share their blood to make someone live, then who are we to make it a sin?

We can argue religion all day, but it doesn't change the fact that JW's believe what they believe. If God is truly just and loving, then he would not punish someone who had no control over a blood tranfusion.
Our souls are truly up to us...JW's have NO RIGHT to make decisions for others. They can advise and counsel, but the decision should be soley left to the one who is dying. This does not seem to be the case, where Dennis was concerned.

Kris, I actually was not calling you ignorant. I emplore you to read this entire blog (it may take a while but is very interesting) and follow the stories of each and the tag lines that follow from other bloggers. I don't really remember specific name calling only references to ignorance. I have been here since the beginning so I am beginning to lose track of some of the first conversations but will probably read them again.

Here is the bottom line. I knew Dennis very well. I know what the truth is without speculating. This boy was taken advantage of because of his need/desire to please adults probably out of fear of losing those relationships like he had throughout his life. For all he had been through he was an amazing person and should still be alive today. Religion preyed, as they often do, and sacrificed this young man in the name of religion.

I wish you knew Dennis personally and as well as I did. If that were true I think you would fight as hard as I am so this does not happen again to another child all in the name of religion.

Take care

It will be ok 5810. it will take a while to heal. I think dennis should have gotten that transfusion. but the JW think blood is to sacred. life is sacred too. and until they understand that those people that knew dennis or those of us who want to make sure it doesn't happen again to another child are going to keep on fighting.

Kris, I'm glad you're here. Beleive me, none of us wanted to get into the name calling. Sadly, emotions have been running very high on this issue. I wish I could say that this is a normal debate. If it was, I could be very passive about it and understand others points of view. In this case the JW's don't have a leg to stand on and they know it. This is a terrible tradgedy that people like S810, Megan, and Dennis' friend have had to endure. I never knew Dennis, but I endured this issue with a childhood friend and a relative. I never felt it the same way these have since I was a JW at the time, and would have argued just like the JW's did. That's because I was brainwashed as well.

When you finally come out of the fog, it can be a tendancy to be stunned when you see people under the influence of this cult. I bet it's the same for people who were never in it.

Those of us who have lost family and friends to this cult can't help but fight, especially when some are praising the JW doctine of murdering their own for the sake of money and controlling people. Stick around Kris. If you read what was written in the media and have questions, ask those that knew Dennis personally. If you want to know why me, and MANY others who are watching this thread can't stand JW doctrine and demand it be changed, ask us. Good luck to you, stick around, and ask anything you want.

I forgot to mention Gary. And my apologies to any other of Dennis' friends I might have missed.

S810,
My apologies if I misunderstood. My heart goes out to you and the grief you are feeling.

The best thing you can do to fight jw doctorine is to stand in front of their Kingdom Halls and picket them. Find tracts or information that you can give out to those who are about to be sucked into their midst and hand it to them. But, please remember, that people still have the right to believe and worship as they see fit. Also remember that not all religions are predators of those who are vulnerable.

Fight the good fight to change the laws, but be careful not to trample on our constitutional right to freedom of religion. No one should be able to make the decision to let someone die accept the one who is dying.

I will pray for your healing and justice in this matter. I truly believe divine justice will have its day. I really do.

First of all Alex and Megan thanks for hanging in there. I appreciate you both still contributing.

Kris, I went to church for many, many years. I do not anymore because I cannot stand hypocrisy. Now I am not saying all christians and religius folks are but there were enough to change my faith drop religion and join the human race. I have a deep respect for rights and freedom of religion but I also believe in freedom from religion. I have seen what these people can do to other people and to this country.

I fight this fight so hard because I was close to Dennis, I know the truth and he should be alive!!! There was a sight for him through the hospital that was shut down by his aunt because non JW's were (mainly his friends) communicating with him. His aunts last entry on that sight began with the word VICTORY!!! when she announced they would not give him a transfusion. VICTORY for what??? Killing a child in the name of her religion? Dennis was always searching for stable adults in his life. He was an amazing kid and his death had one of the worst impacts on kids and people who knew him all because he was sacrificed for a corporate religion that is full of hypocrisy.

I hope you do read the entries in this blog by ex JW's but especially the one's from those that knew Dennis and felt the sting of this injustice.

I am glad it seems to be us, the last few left and not the ignorant (sorry Kris, dictionary definition) JW's!!

To Alex, Megan and the rest of us I say...

VICTORY!!!

Well said S810. I hope we can now have a conversation about how to better the system. And answer any questions people may have. I also want to see King5 take note, as I'm sure this topic has set records for their website.

To Megan. I also read the article about that poor guy from England. A travesty as well. I may be wrong, but I believe that is the disease labelled on the Elephant Man. So sad, that a simple operation as a child might have given him a chance at a fuller life.

I for one, would be very happy to keep in touch with you guys after this is over, but i respect the anonimity of the internet. I hope to keep hearing from you guys. Cheers and regards.

we need to continue fighting to make sure this doesn't happen again. and kris was right that people are able to make there own choices. however, dennis wanted to live, but his religion got in the way. maybe he thought if he had this transfusion, he'd get looked upon differently or get shunned from his religion entirely. I don't know. but what i do know is that well, life is too precious a thing to waste and if he had that transfusion he'd be alive now. planning for highschool in two years, and going to dances. flirting with girs. so yes we have to keep fighting to make sure dennis gets the justice he didn't get in his final hours.

Kris, Meg, s810, Alex,
This issue must be very dear to your hearts. I do not live in the area, and did not know Dennis. So I can not speak for him.

Kris, I believe you are correct, divine justice will prevail. s810, why do you call Jehovahs Witnesses a Corporate Religion? NOT arguing,just seeking to understand. This blog is sort of a chat room now, isnt it? My suggestion: Blogging will not stop those JWs. If you want to stop them,try legislation. The Frenchies are working it that way. But beware, don't give up your freedoms. The Witnesses do not vote, so passing a few laws restricting them should not be too hard. ( unless they have divine power on their side). best wishes to you all.

LIFE IS NOT FAIR. get over it. we are supposed to learn that at 5 or 6 years old... and it usually sinks in by 13. You all write as adults, so I assume you are. Stop whining. yes, whining. This is not mourning, it is just whining. stop. go have some fun! make a contribution some where in Dennis name. Maybe the Red Cross if you like blood so much! Peace, out.

Kris, Meg, s810, Alex,
This issue must be very dear to your hearts. I do not live in the area, and did not know Dennis. So I can not speak for him.

Kris, I believe you are correct, divine justice will prevail. s810, why do you call Jehovahs Witnesses a Corporate Religion? NOT arguing,just seeking to understand. This blog is sort of a chat room now, isnt it? My suggestion: Blogging will not stop those JWs. If you want to stop them,try legislation. The Frenchies are working it that way. But beware, don't give up your freedoms. The Witnesses do not vote, so passing a few laws restricting them should not be too hard. ( unless they have divine power on their side). best wishes to you all.

LIFE IS NOT FAIR. get over it. we are supposed to learn that at 5 or 6 years old... and it usually sinks in by 13. You all write as adults, so I assume you are. Stop whining. yes, whining. This is not mourning, it is just whining. stop. go have some fun! make a contribution some where in Dennis name. Maybe the Red Cross if you like blood so much! Peace, out.

I do not know where to start jn getting the legislation to pass a law.I'm 18 and still haven't gotten into the swing of voting, and legislations and stuff, so where would you start if the idea of going to them would help? not saying i'm going to, just curious.

BrianNY - I can't say this enough. Take the time to read the whole blog and catch up before you start asking questions and spouting off. I am tired of repeating myself for people who are to lazy to read, NOT arguing!

You are such a Sage! Where have you been this whole time? You have enlightened us all with your comments. Wow! Legislation? I thought that was discussed way back but I guess not. Contributions??? And to think I have just been sitting here learning what the definition of whining is from you. Luckily I don't have free thinking to call it what I want. I will take your advice and not give up my freedoms and just ignore your ignorance and continue on with out DISCUSSION!!!!

(Sorry Kris)

Megan - your local paper usually lists the representives in your area. If not a quick search on the web will give you addresses and phone numbers of all your state politicians all the way up to the president. Easiest thing you can do is call and leave a polite plea for your state reps. I am sure in our state they have been getting many calls.

Thanks

My heart goes out to those who mourn the passing of Dennis. But in regard to the legal issue, the judge did his job, and I thank him. The people with the greatest interest in this highly personal decision were Dennis and his legal guardian. They were clear this is the route they wanted to go. I would not want a government telling me or my legal guardian that I have to accept the treatment they think is in my best interest but which I strenously oppose. How would you feel if faced, say, with a government that adopted this Jehovah Witness belief and a judge barred you from getting a blood transfusion? What if the goverment opposed all surgies as a barbaric practice? I am very grateful to live in a country that is so dedicated in protecting personal freedom, and danger of moving away from that always arises in these cases where the majority wishes to trample on the rights of the minority.

Megan,
Did you not learn anything about government in High School?

The best thing you can do is look up your qeustions on the interent. Ask Geeves is a good place to start. Read about how our government works and act upon it. Don't vote, just to vote...find out who the candidates are (they have their own websites) and see what they stand for...vote with your heart and your mind...don't vote if you can't make an informed decision. Our government is complex, but it is not impossible to learn about it. Take it one step at a time...the fact that you are interested is great.

S810,
I have been to a lot of churches in my lifetime...Baptist, Church of God, Church of God of Pophecy, Presbyterian, Methodist and Seventh Day Adventist. The one thing I have learned over the years is that NO CHURCH IS PERFECT...nor are the people who govern them. We, too often, put people on pedistals only to watch them crash down. Bottom line is, if your go into a religion with that in mind, you will not be disappointed. I am not a member of any church...just a member of the human race and a Christian, who TRIES to live a Christian life the best I can. I am not perfect, nor have I ever proclaimed to be. Honestly, I cannot look at the complexities of life without acknowledging a greater power for it. That's just me. I do know that my life is much richer for believing in God. It gets me through the day.
If there is no God when I die, I have gained nothing...but if there is...I have gained everything.

Jehova Witnesses, in my point of view, have perverted the bible in so many ways, but I don't know many religions that haven't.
The Catholic church is yet another religion that I question on so many levels...however, I do not judge them because in my belief, that is God's job.
And S810, I believe he will judge and there will be justice.

You do have a right to freedom from religion... and I respect that. I wish there was something I could do to make JW's see that they are completely and utterly wrong in their interpretation...but, they are going to have to see it for themselves. And as often as they seem to change the rules, it would seem to me that they probably will do it in this regard also...eventually.

I wonder if they eat meat at all without it being kosher...(in other words, the blood being completely removed from the meat)...if they don't then they are breaking their own rules.

Take care...

CRW-Did you not read my query regarding the terminally ill and elderly who are not allowed to be euthinized at their own request??? In this country they put Kovorkian (sp?) in prison for respecting these adult people their requests. The courts do not allow us as adults to choose whether we live or die when faced with death but they allow a 14 year old to be sacrificed in the name of religion and you think that is just great???? I await your reply.

Kris - this is just for you personally (sorry for using this for a quick private chat everyone) I too went to church for many years and if what I was taught is true and god IS omni present AND he does have a plan AND he knows what I did yesterday, today and knows what I will do tomorrow then he must understand why I am agnostic and why I choose to live my life with the good parts I gained from studying all world religions. Don't murder, steal, lie, cheat,etc... Most religions all say that but I do not believe, in the case of Dennis and JW's that they respected Dennis only their own selfish beliefs. Sorry but knowing Dennis and what events transpired that is what I truly believe.

Thanks

yeah I really didn't pay attention in american government. I realy wasn't a good political debater. but back on the subject on dennis. I don't know what the JW belive but if you could have a life saving procedure that could slow the progression of cancer why not have it? I have a few friends who are JW and i have nothing against them personally. its their religion that i don't agree with. if they were dying of cancer and they could live longer, I'd do everything in my power to make sure they got that transfusion. but that's just my opinion.